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Iu When 2 Appy ?what Is Needed?


rikkor

Question

I have been unemployed for over 20+ yrs. after becoming SC disabled currently @ 60 %.

Reason being, have had numerous MH problems, Chronic pain,depression, anixity, flashbks, insomnia, besides constant medication and substance abuse problems, secondary to SC injury.(traumatic Laceration of achilles tendon and nerves) when struck/attacked with a power- lawnmower from behind by another unknown active duty soldier, while in AIT. I spent almost 16 months in an army hosp. due to said injury, and subsequently was ret.(med. RET) @ the age of 19. I could'nt file for SS. or actually denied , as i did'nt have enough work credits.

I continue to have the same problems if not worst, and have been denied SC for PTSD even tho I feel it is presumtuous that PTSD would occur from any like injury, ie. traumatic and serious( darn near severerd my leg off)I filed for IU in 2006 considering I have been unemployed all my life and was denied. any suggestions would be considered. thanks

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  • HadIt.com Elder

rikkor - 1st thing, reapply for SSDI, using the either the day after you were retired from the military as your date of disability onset or the date of the injury. At 19yo, you need less quarters and if you became disabled prior to age 22 your SSDI is based on your father's SS account. You will probably be denied and need to appeal up to the ALJ level, to win, but it can be done. Also, if you can get a PTSD diagnosis and you weren't represented by counsel on your previous SSDI claim, you may still be able to appeal that. I'd consider getting an atty to represent you for SSDI. You can check at http://www.nosscr.org.

On the VA claim, you'll need to secure your SS employment records, to comfirm that you haven't worked all those yrs. This is excellent evidence, especially in the SSDI claim but also in the VA TDIU claim. I think you can win a claim for PTSD but will need a diagnosis of PTSD to get it. You might try using a Vet Center for MH treatment. If you have tri-care, or whatever it might be called these days, you could see someone privately.

What percentage were you retired at?

pr

I have been unemployed for over 20+ yrs. after becoming SC disabled currently @ 60 %.

Reason being, have had numerous MH problems, Chronic pain,depression, anixity, flashbks, insomnia, besides constant medication and substance abuse problems, secondary to SC injury.(traumatic Laceration of achilles tendon and nerves) when struck/attacked with a power- lawnmower from behind by another unknown active duty soldier, while in AIT. I spent almost 16 months in an army hosp. due to said injury, and subsequently was ret.(med. RET) @ the age of 19. I could'nt file for SS. or actually denied , as i did'nt have enough work credits.

I continue to have the same problems if not worst, and have been denied SC for PTSD even tho I feel it is presumtuous that PTSD would occur from any like injury, ie. traumatic and serious( darn near severerd my leg off)I filed for IU in 2006 considering I have been unemployed all my life and was denied. any suggestions would be considered. thanks

Edited by Philip Rogers (see edit history)
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I think you are going the wrong way with MH. PTSD is a sticky point with the VA, you should just focus on depression or anxiety.

Have you tried Vocrehab? That is my suggestion. You need a pattern of working and trying to work.

One issue is that the you have never worked. You have not shown the VA that you cannot work, you have only shown them that you are not working.. there is a difference. Also they only consider your service connected conditions.. If you have Non service-connected conditions, that affect your ability to work, then you are not going to win IU. Your posting states that it is your MH conditions that impact your ability to work, not your SC issues.. So you need to get a SC mental health condition..

I will say that I won my IU on physical issues, not mental, even though my mental conditions have a higher rating.

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  • HadIt.com Elder

I'm going to disagree w/airborne18. You had an in service incident that potentially could cause PTSD, so I would go w/that. I've been dealing w/PTSD claims for 20 yrs, including my own. "My feeling" is that airborne18 doesn't feel your traumatic injury was severe enough to cause PTSD. Listen to all the info offered here at Hadit.com and use your own judgement. jmo

pr

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PR,

He has already been denied PTSD. I believe he has a mental health disorder from the trauma. I had an accident in the military and have a mental health disorder..

But the issue is specifically calling it PTSD. They are jerking around combat vets with PTSD claims, so why would anyone think that they wouldn't jerk around peacetime vets?

I was diagnosed with PTSD due to my trauama. But when I filed for it, my NSO filed for "any mental disorder".. and the rating that came back was for anxiety, not PTSD.

I really do not disagree with you, just there is a subtle difference in claiming PTSD vs depression or anxiety on the veterans side, but it is a big difference to the VA. PTSD is a fight, where as a general mental health condition is not.

I thiink the big hurdle is filing for it 20 years after the incident, especially if there is not a treatment history.

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  • HadIt.com Elder

airborne18 - okay! I just feel that he has a verifiable stressor(nexus), which many combat vets don't have. The 20 yrs later thing is the "P" in PTSD, ie: "Post." Lets see, I left VN in 9/67 and never realized there was anything wrong w/me until the late 80's. Never had any treatment between then and when I filed but did have the appropriate social history. Perhaps he should file for a PTSD/anxiety disorder. My concern there is that I know of no cured PTSD cases but I'm sure the VA will "find" a cure for anxiety. We can disagree. BTW, I went thru jump school in 6/65 at Benning and was a 11B4P, w/the 1st Bde (Abn), 1st Cav, 7/65-9/67. Airborne, ATW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

pr

PR,

He has already been denied PTSD. I believe he has a mental health disorder from the trauma. I had an accident in the military and have a mental health disorder..

But the issue is specifically calling it PTSD. They are jerking around combat vets with PTSD claims, so why would anyone think that they wouldn't jerk around peacetime vets?

I was diagnosed with PTSD due to my trauama. But when I filed for it, my NSO filed for "any mental disorder".. and the rating that came back was for anxiety, not PTSD.

I really do not disagree with you, just there is a subtle difference in claiming PTSD vs depression or anxiety on the veterans side, but it is a big difference to the VA. PTSD is a fight, where as a general mental health condition is not.

I thiink the big hurdle is filing for it 20 years after the incident, especially if there is not a treatment history.

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All The Way Bro.... So my question is.. how does he salvage his PTSD claim at this point?? appeal his denial?? Vet Center will not deal with non-combat veterans.. he might have eligibility due to his service dates.. I know I am not eligible.

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rikkor, the next time you are at the VAMC go to the release of information office and request a copy of your mental health records and progress notes. This may take some time but this is what you need. Some VAMCs don't like to release this information out to patients but if you persist they will. My point here is, have you been diagnosed with a mental disorder and what was/is it. To be granted service connection you must first have to be diagnosed in the military and have a current diagnoses and go from there. If you are being treated by the VA they should have a diagnoses and you can also contact other hospitals and emergency rooms where you were to get those records to find your diagnoses. Some may not agree but Va will only pay compensation for the mental disorder that best describes your condition. It really doesn't matter if it is called depression, PTSD, mood, or anxiety disorder they all follow the same rating depending on the severity of your symptoms.

You can also claim depression due to your service connected conditions. This may take some work on your behalf VA may or may not have all these records especially the record (s) of suicidal tendencies

Edited by pacmanx1 (see edit history)
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  • HadIt.com Elder

Any vet w/ptsd is entitled to Vet Ctr counseling, as is/are the family members of a ptsd vet. He can salvage his claim by appealing the denial. He can, as you suggested, also call it anxiety disorder, if he chooses. I helped a friend, VN vet win, recently, but he applied for PTSD and they changed it to anxiety disorder, claimed as PTSD, cuz he didn't meet all the PTSD criteria and awarded him 30%. The thing is they verified his stressors for PTSD and I don't know that you need stressor verification for anxiety disorder. AATW!!!

pr

All The Way Bro.... So my question is.. how does he salvage his PTSD claim at this point?? appeal his denial?? Vet Center will not deal with non-combat veterans.. he might have eligibility due to his service dates.. I know I am not eligible.
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Vet Center will not deal with non-combat veterans.. he might have eligibility due to his service dates.. I know I am not eligible.

airborne,

Vet Centers provide full services and deal with non-combat vets all the time.

Did you attempt to have services provided at a Vet Center and they denied you

for some reason?

carlie

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airborne18 - okay! I just feel that he has a verifiable stressor(nexus), which many combat vets don't have. The 20 yrs later thing is the "P" in PTSD, ie: "Post." Lets see, I left VN in 9/67 and never realized there was anything wrong w/me until the late 80's. Never had any treatment between then and when I filed but did have the appropriate social history. Perhaps he should file for a PTSD/anxiety disorder. My concern there is that I know of no cured PTSD cases but I'm sure the VA will "find" a cure for anxiety. We can disagree. BTW, I went thru jump school in 6/65 at Benning and was a 11B4P, w/the 1st Bde (Abn), 1st Cav, 7/65-9/67. Airborne, ATW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

pr

in addition , i believe both of you are correct...many details are obscure, its been so long and I appreciate all your input.. may god bless u.

i believe i was ret @ 40% of e-2 pay which turned out to be in 1977...$77.00 a month so i wavied ret. pay and chose V. A . comp which started me on the same 40 percent.

Note .since being ret. i have been in and out of V.A. hospitals. I did not know about PTSD.

Nor was PTSD recognized for other vets until many yrs. later .. maybe in the 80's, not exactly sure.

And my hospitalzations were mostly inpatient,( for MH), and I had different diagnoses from Each VA hospital..but i had continued contact with VA hospitals from date of discharge from milatary, up to the present. complaints of chronic pain, depression, suicidal ideations, anixity,Etc. I believe these can be nexus to my injury inclusive of the PTSD as a secondary, my injury is def a stressor, def serious( almost choped off my leg) traumatic, and i did spend 16 long months in the ARMY hospitals , in patient for operations, ETC. they even had me on morphine for the 1st 6 months of injury, prior to my med ret'ment. I came out totally useless, and my conditions are permanant and would worsen as diagnosed by ARMY dr. 's statement s on record. I def appricate your help and any suggestions God bless u..and thanks again.

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  • HadIt.com Elder

rikkor - I believe PTSD became an accepted diagnosis in 1981, in the DSM-III. I would request complete copies of your VA medical records and your VA claims file (c-file) and then look for errors in the original rating or any subsequent rating. Once you get copies of your records, I would also look for any mention of you being unable to work being noted. I'd also request an increase in your current VA compensation. Additionally, I'd continue w/your TDIU claim/appeal. Monday, you should contact an SSDI atty and your nearest Vet Ctr. You should bear in mind that VA medical records are not associated w/your c-file unless you tell them about them. The VA does this so they can honestly deny claims, as there is no evidence of any treatment, in the record. It's a great system for screwing vets. jmo

pr

Edited by Philip Rogers (see edit history)
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  • HadIt.com Elder

If you are 60% SC and one disability is at least 40% you have enough for IU now. File for it regardless. If you can't work due to SC disability file for IU. Don't wait for a PTSD diagnosis. I have been diagnosed with everything from schizophrenia to bi-polar, panic disorder and PTSD. It does not matter if you can't work because of it. My rating included all four of those disorders, plus a few. I got 70% and IU.

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If you are 60% SC and one disability is at least 40% you have enough for IU now. File for it regardless. If you can't work due to SC disability file for IU. Don't wait for a PTSD diagnosis. I have been diagnosed with everything from schizophrenia to bi-polar, panic disorder and PTSD. It does not matter if you can't work because of it. My rating included all four of those disorders, plus a few. I got 70% and IU.

You must be 60% for one condition or 70% with at least one condition at 40% to qualify for IU. You and always file for extra schedular. While the incident was traumatic,filing for depression secondary to your already service connected conditon seems to be a better claim.

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airborne,

Vet Centers provide full services and deal with non-combat vets all the time.

Did you attempt to have services provided at a Vet Center and they denied you

for some reason?

carlie

I actually never tried, because http://www.vetcenter.va.gov/Eligibility.asp clearly states you have to be a war zone veteran, which I am not.

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  • HadIt.com Elder

Sharon, please don't continue to spread the myth that "You must be 60% for one condition or 70% with at least one condition at 40% to qualify for IU." The reason I say that is, even though it'll be an extra-schedular rating, it'll still be IU and doesn't require the requisite 60% or 70%. The VA continually perpetuates this myth and by doing so discourages qualified veterans from applying for and receiving their just award.

pr

You must be 60% for one condition or 70% with at least one condition at 40% to qualify for IU. You and always file for extra schedular. While the incident was traumatic,filing for depression secondary to your already service connected conditon seems to be a better claim.
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Here are the facts

§ 4.16 Total disability ratings for compensation based on unemployability of the individual.

ret-arrow-generic-grey.gif top (a) Total disability ratings for compensation may be assigned, where the schedular rating is less than total, when the disabled person is, in the judgment of the rating agency, unable to secure or follow a substantially gainful occupation as a result of service-connected disabilities: Provided That, if there is only one such disability, this disability shall be ratable at 60 percent or more, and that, if there are two or more disabilities, there shall be at least one disability ratable at 40 percent or more, and sufficient additional disability to bring the combined rating to 70 percent or more. For the above purpose of one 60 percent disability, or one 40 percent disability in combination, the following will be considered as one disability: (1) Disabilities of one or both upper extremities, or of one or both lower extremities, including the bilateral factor, if applicable, (2) disabilities resulting from common etiology or a single accident, (3) disabilities affecting a single body system, e.g. orthopedic, digestive, respiratory, cardiovascular-renal, neuropsychiatric, (4) multiple injuries incurred in action, or (5) multiple disabilities incurred as a prisoner of war. It is provided further that the existence or degree of nonservice-connected disabilities or previous unemployability status will be disregarded where the percentages referred to in this paragraph for the service-connected disability or disabilities are met and in the judgment of the rating agency such service-connected disabilities render the veteran unemployable. Marginal employment shall not be considered substantially gainful employment. For purposes of this section, marginal employment generally shall be deemed to exist when a veteran's earned annual income does not exceed the amount established by the U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census, as the poverty threshold for one person. Marginal employment may also be held to exist, on a facts found basis (includes but is not limited to employment in a protected environment such as a family business or sheltered workshop), when earned annual income exceeds the poverty threshold. Consideration shall be given in all claims to the nature of the employment and the reason for termination.

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  • HadIt.com Elder

airborne18, you'll notice that it's a VA site posting that info. It wouldn't be the first time the VA mislead veterans, would it! A Vet Center would at least do an assessment, probably give a diagnosis and do a referral if they couldn't treat. Besides, it would be discriminatory, especially when they are also treating MST victims, in addition to theater personnel.

pr

AATW

I actually never tried, because http://www.vetcenter.va.gov/Eligibility.asp clearly states you have to be a war zone veteran, which I am not.
Edited by Philip Rogers (see edit history)
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  • HadIt.com Elder

pete992, please post only complete accurate information. Below is the complete text of 4.16:

[Code of Federal Regulations][Title 38, Volume 1][Revised as of July 1, 2008]

From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access

[CITE: 38CFR4.16][Page 366]

TITLE 38--PENSIONS, BONUSES, AND VETERANS' RELIEF CHAPTER I--DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS PART 4_SCHEDULE FOR RATING DISABILITIES--Table of Contents Subpart A_General Policy in Rating Sec. 4.16 Total disability ratings for compensation based on unemployability of the individual.

(a) Total disability ratings for compensation may be assigned, where the schedular rating is less than total, when the disabled person is, in the judgment of the rating agency, unable to secure or follow a substantially gainful occupation as a result of service-connected disabilities: Provided That, if there is only one such disability, this disability shall be ratable at 60 percent or more, and that, if there are two or more disabilities, there shall be at least one disability ratable at 40 percent or more, and sufficient additional disability to bring the combined rating to 70 percent or more. For the above purpose of one 60 percent disability, or one 40 percent disability in combination, the following will be considered as one disability: (1) Disabilities of one or both upper extremities, or of one or both lower extremities, including the bilateral factor, if applicable, (2) disabilities resulting from common etiology or a single accident, (3) disabilities affecting a single body system, e.g. orthopedic, digestive, respiratory, cardiovascular-renal, neuropsychiatric, (4) multiple injuries incurred in action, or (5) multiple disabilities incurred as a prisoner of war. It is provided further that the existence or degree of nonservice-connected disabilities or previous unemployability status will be disregarded where the percentages referred to in this paragraph for the service-connected disability or disabilities are met and in the judgment of the rating agency such service-connected disabilities render the veteran unemployable. Marginal employment shall not be considered substantially gainful employment. For purposes of this section, marginal employment generally shall be deemed to exist when a veteran's earned annual income does not exceed the amount established by the U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census, as the poverty threshold for one person. Marginal employment may also be held to exist, on a facts found basis (includes but is not limited to employment in a protected environment such as a family business or sheltered workshop), when earned annual income exceeds the poverty threshold. Consideration shall be given in all claims to the nature of the employment and the reason for termination.(Authority: 38 U.S.C. 501)

b.) It is the established policy of the Department of Veterans Affairs that all veterans who are unable to secure and follow a substantially gainful occupation by reason of service-connected disabilities shall be rated totally disabled. Therefore, rating boards should submit to the Director, Compensation and Pension Service, for extra-schedular consideration all cases of veterans who are unemployable by reason of service-connected disabilities, but who fail to meet the percentage standards set forth in paragraph (a) of this section. The rating board will include a full statement as to the veteran's service-connected disabilities, employment history, educational and vocational attainment and all other factors having a bearing on the issue.[40 FR 42535, Sept. 15, 1975, as amended at 54 FR 4281, Jan. 30, 1989; 55 FR 31580, Aug. 3, 1990; 58 FR 39664, July 26, 1993; 61 FR 52700, Oct. 8, 1996]

Thanks,

pr

Here are the facts

§ 4.16 Total disability ratings for compensation based on unemployability of the individual.

ret-arrow-generic-grey.gif top (a) Total disability ratings for compensation may be assigned, where the schedular rating is less than total, when the disabled person is, in the judgment of the rating agency, unable to secure or follow a substantially gainful occupation as a result of service-connected disabilities: Provided That, if there is only one such disability, this disability shall be ratable at 60 percent or more, and that, if there are two or more disabilities, there shall be at least one disability ratable at 40 percent or more, and sufficient additional disability to bring the combined rating to 70 percent or more. For the above purpose of one 60 percent disability, or one 40 percent disability in combination, the following will be considered as one disability: (1) Disabilities of one or both upper extremities, or of one or both lower extremities, including the bilateral factor, if applicable, (2) disabilities resulting from common etiology or a single accident, (3) disabilities affecting a single body system, e.g. orthopedic, digestive, respiratory, cardiovascular-renal, neuropsychiatric, (4) multiple injuries incurred in action, or (5) multiple disabilities incurred as a prisoner of war. It is provided further that the existence or degree of nonservice-connected disabilities or previous unemployability status will be disregarded where the percentages referred to in this paragraph for the service-connected disability or disabilities are met and in the judgment of the rating agency such service-connected disabilities render the veteran unemployable. Marginal employment shall not be considered substantially gainful employment. For purposes of this section, marginal employment generally shall be deemed to exist when a veteran's earned annual income does not exceed the amount established by the U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census, as the poverty threshold for one person. Marginal employment may also be held to exist, on a facts found basis (includes but is not limited to employment in a protected environment such as a family business or sheltered workshop), when earned annual income exceeds the poverty threshold. Consideration shall be given in all claims to the nature of the employment and the reason for termination.

Edited by Philip Rogers (see edit history)
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  • HadIt.com Elder

You're right, they do and they do it intentionally. It is meant to dissuade, mislead and discourage the claimant from continuing w/their claim. They never mention 4.16(b) as it is part of their disinformation campaign and they actually require the claimant to ask for extra-schedular consideration, in order to receive it.

pr

OK, I still feel that VA looks for the rating of one issue at 60% or a combine of 70%
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