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Ascomdepot68

Ao And Your 201 File

Question

I am in the process of constructing a page per page record of documents I have supplied to VARO in St Petersburg for my claim which has been in since July 7, 2010. Too long for me, reading other persons posts I'm a newbie way in the back of the line. Thing is I'm not going to take it.

Today, I was reading a Military Personnel Records Jacket DA Form 201 (June 1966). Interesting reading, wonder why I never read it in the past.

For those of you without access to one I will repeat word for word the information printed printed on the form. The bold face type is of my making, for emphasis.

On left side:

INSTRUCTIONS

This side of the Military Personnel Records

Jacket is for all official and unofficial

correspondence concerning the individual,

such as officers' orders, requests, personal

documents, training and administrative doc-

uments required by local commanders, affi-

davites or certificates. The documents

listed on the Field Personnel File Divider

(DA Form 201a), will be filed above the

divider. Other documents will be filed

below the divider.

Upon transfer from an organization,the

custodian of this record will remove all

documents filed above the divider and ar-

range the remaining papers in chronological

order with the latest dated paper on top.

Documents which are removed at time of

transfer will be destroyed.

Upon release from active duty or separation

from the service, documents filed above the

divider will be destroyed, and the remain-

ing documents will be disposed of in ac-

ordance with AR640-10

Upon release from active duty, all PER-

SONAL DOCUMENTS (e.g. wills, mar-

riage and birth certificates ) will be re-

turned to the individual.

Field File Section

On right side:

INSTRUCTIONS

THE FOLLOWING LISTED DOCUMENTS WILL BE MAINTAINED ON THIS SIDe

(Documents contained herein may be withdrawn for the purpose of making entries thereon. They will not

be withdrawn for other purposes unless specifically authorized by pertinent regulations)

1. Qualification Record To be maintained in the order named at the topmost

2. Military Leave record documents in the file

3. Loyalty Certificate for personnel of Armed Forces

4. Record of emergency data

5. Report of Medical History Reserve ad other personnel only for whom a health

6. Report of medical examination records jacket is not maintained

7. Enlistment (Induction) Record (Enlisted personnel only)

8. Other documents when required by Department of the Army Instructions

(Record title of form and requiring regulation below)

TITLE REGULATION

Military History Side

I am not a personnel specialist, although in basic when they discovered I could type they tried to make me one, but i had my school already set. I don't know what was regularly destroyed or "disposed" of but from what I have in my posssession I think it was quite a bit. Promotion, weapons merit, assignment, commendations, various miscellaneous orders I was given when I got out. What was destroyed I don't know. What was or what was not above or below the divider I don't know. Perhaps a personnel specialist can chime in here? What I do know is that the VA seems to put a good deal of faith in the 201 file. Gone at a minimum is a lot of info on other personnel on orders you received that could give you a chance at

"buddy letters".

Let me relate a little piece of history. From an earlier post I stated I was stationed at USA ASCOM Depot in 1968-1969. We supplied probably better than 90% of everything in Korea to both US and ROK troops, including AO came through there. Naturally with so much stuff there were shortages, pilferage, breakage to be expected. Expected, not accepted. Having had over a decade to polish their tactics the local bandits were proficient. A favorite ploy was to have someone

in stock control pull the location card on an item. When the truck hit the gate if it was noticed and anything was said, the driver simply said "I brought it in". Without a record of it there was no way to prove theft. For some reason this went on for quite awhile until someone had the bright idea to start checking the trucks on the way in as well as when leaving. That slowed them down for awhile, but some other scheme would always pop up.

Does anyone else see the parallel here between the stuff stolen vs location cards missing and a VBA claim vs missing military records??

On November 7, 2001 then VA Secretary Principi signed a "memorandum of agreement" with the National Archives and Records Administration to cut down the wait time. In that agreement it was to take one working day for a high-priority request and under five-day delivery for routine requests for records. What happened??

The VA waited 5 months two weeks to request my 201 from NARA, according to eBenefits. Then it took 29 days for the records to be received once requested by the VA according to eBenefits. So the "under five working day" standard has been apparently relaxed.

In a "iris" inquiry I asked just that, why the delay of 5 1/2 months delay before even asking for it? The 5 day standard given on that site had come and gone also. I also asked why if there are "herbicide exposure records" as apparently there are, as they show as being requested on eBenefits, why in the world don't they use them to outreach to veterans instead of waiting to seek them when a claim is filed. Of course I will not get a direct answer at first, that's my fault. I guess I should ask easier questions.

In regards to records, both paper and otherwise I would like to make a suggestion. If you are still on active service, if you have children or grandchildren in the service or about to enter the service, any friends, etc. stress to them that at any

opportunity they have collect any documentation even if they think it is not relevant at the time and get it to a safe place. Photos are good. Soil and water samples are good, use sterile containers. Keep all their letters home. My mother kept all my letters home and now 43 years later they are providing me "evidence" to use in my claims.

To "newbies" remember there is a great great deal of difference in what is provided for public consumption and what is really done by the VBA.

To all my fellow brothers in arms and sisters, I say good luck, and don't give up!

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This was quite insightful to me, as I have asked many why the military cannot find " Certain" documents, but can find some.

As an example, I was a machine gunner in Quang Tri, 60 yards from the DMZ. We called it the 50 yard line as we all got the

best seats in the house. In 1967, 1968, USMC there were a number of incidents that took place that the government says never occurred.

Without saying so , they called me a fabricator and lier. They said nothing unusual ever really happed in this area.

If you will private message me, if it is allowed, i will tell you what happened, as request a way to search for the actual records.

I do not know if this is permitted by the moderator. But if it is allowed, and you have the interest in helping I would appreciate your time.

I am in the process of constructing a page per page record of documents I have supplied to VARO in St Petersburg for my claim which has been in since July 7, 2010. Too long for me, reading other persons posts I'm a newbie way in the back of the line. Thing is I'm not going to take it.

Today, I was reading a Military Personnel Records Jacket DA Form 201 (June 1966). Interesting reading, wonder why I never read it in the past.

For those of you without access to one I will repeat word for word the information printed printed on the form. The bold face type is of my making, for emphasis.

On left side:

INSTRUCTIONS

This side of the Military Personnel Records

Jacket is for all official and unofficial

correspondence concerning the individual,

such as officers' orders, requests, personal

documents, training and administrative doc-

uments required by local commanders, affi-

davites or certificates. The documents

listed on the Field Personnel File Divider

(DA Form 201a), will be filed above the

divider. Other documents will be filed

below the divider.

Upon transfer from an organization,the

custodian of this record will remove all

documents filed above the divider and ar-

range the remaining papers in chronological

order with the latest dated paper on top.

Documents which are removed at time of

transfer will be destroyed.

Upon release from active duty or separation

from the service, documents filed above the

divider will be destroyed, and the remain-

ing documents will be disposed of in ac-

ordance with AR640-10

Upon release from active duty, all PER-

SONAL DOCUMENTS (e.g. wills, mar-

riage and birth certificates ) will be re-

turned to the individual.

Field File Section

On right side:

INSTRUCTIONS

THE FOLLOWING LISTED DOCUMENTS WILL BE MAINTAINED ON THIS SIDe

(Documents contained herein may be withdrawn for the purpose of making entries thereon. They will not

be withdrawn for other purposes unless specifically authorized by pertinent regulations)

1. Qualification Record To be maintained in the order named at the topmost

2. Military Leave record documents in the file

3. Loyalty Certificate for personnel of Armed Forces

4. Record of emergency data

5. Report of Medical History Reserve ad other personnel only for whom a health

6. Report of medical examination records jacket is not maintained

7. Enlistment (Induction) Record (Enlisted personnel only)

8. Other documents when required by Department of the Army Instructions

(Record title of form and requiring regulation below)

TITLE REGULATION

Military History Side

I am not a personnel specialist, although in basic when they discovered I could type they tried to make me one, but i had my school already set. I don't know what was regularly destroyed or "disposed" of but from what I have in my posssession I think it was quite a bit. Promotion, weapons merit, assignment, commendations, various miscellaneous orders I was given when I got out. What was destroyed I don't know. What was or what was not above or below the divider I don't know. Perhaps a personnel specialist can chime in here? What I do know is that the VA seems to put a good deal of faith in the 201 file. Gone at a minimum is a lot of info on other personnel on orders you received that could give you a chance at

"buddy letters".

Let me relate a little piece of history. From an earlier post I stated I was stationed at USA ASCOM Depot in 1968-1969. We supplied probably better than 90% of everything in Korea to both US and ROK troops, including AO came through there. Naturally with so much stuff there were shortages, pilferage, breakage to be expected. Expected, not accepted. Having had over a decade to polish their tactics the local bandits were proficient. A favorite ploy was to have someone

in stock control pull the location card on an item. When the truck hit the gate if it was noticed and anything was said, the driver simply said "I brought it in". Without a record of it there was no way to prove theft. For some reason this went on for quite awhile until someone had the bright idea to start checking the trucks on the way in as well as when leaving. That slowed them down for awhile, but some other scheme would always pop up.

Does anyone else see the parallel here between the stuff stolen vs location cards missing and a VBA claim vs missing military records??

On November 7, 2001 then VA Secretary Principi signed a "memorandum of agreement" with the National Archives and Records Administration to cut down the wait time. In that agreement it was to take one working day for a high-priority request and under five-day delivery for routine requests for records. What happened??

The VA waited 5 months two weeks to request my 201 from NARA, according to eBenefits. Then it took 29 days for the records to be received once requested by the VA according to eBenefits. So the "under five working day" standard has been apparently relaxed.

In a "iris" inquiry I asked just that, why the delay of 5 1/2 months delay before even asking for it? The 5 day standard given on that site had come and gone also. I also asked why if there are "herbicide exposure records" as apparently there are, as they show as being requested on eBenefits, why in the world don't they use them to outreach to veterans instead of waiting to seek them when a claim is filed. Of course I will not get a direct answer at first, that's my fault. I guess I should ask easier questions.

In regards to records, both paper and otherwise I would like to make a suggestion. If you are still on active service, if you have children or grandchildren in the service or about to enter the service, any friends, etc. stress to them that at any

opportunity they have collect any documentation even if they think it is not relevant at the time and get it to a safe place. Photos are good. Soil and water samples are good, use sterile containers. Keep all their letters home. My mother kept all my letters home and now 43 years later they are providing me "evidence" to use in my claims.

To "newbies" remember there is a great great deal of difference in what is provided for public consumption and what is really done by the VBA.

To all my fellow brothers in arms and sisters, I say good luck, and don't give up!

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If you will private message me, if it is allowed, i will tell you what happened, as request a way to search for the actual records.

I do not know if this is permitted by the moderator. But if it is allowed, and you have the interest in helping I would appreciate your time.

RonP,

The moderators and/or admin at Hadit.com

do not have anything to do with whether PM's and / or emails

are allowed.

It's up to the member you are wanting to correspond with.

They are the ones that either allow or block PM's and / or emails.

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Requested copy of 201 file to include medical from NPRC on 2/11/2011, copied signature verification and mailed it out within an hour. They emailed back on 2/16/2011 that they had recived the signature authorization

Today 3/4/2011 I received my 201 containing a whole 12 pages.

#1 A cover letter which states medical record requested is not at center. (1 page)

#2 DA Form 20 (Enlisted Qualification Record) (4 pages)

#3 DD Form 373 (Consent declaration of Parent or Legal Guardian) (2 pages) (went in when I was 8 days short of 18)

#4 DD Form 4 #1 (Enlistment Record) (2 pages)

#5 DD Form 4 #2 (Enlistment Record) (2 pages)

#6 Department of VA Request for Information. (no form # unless it is (3101 print (?)) Submitted 7/13/2010, Received 7/14/2010, Branch Completion date 7/19/2010

Request M01

Medical/Dental, Furnish Complete Medical/Dental Record (STRS)

Response

All Available Requested Records <<Mailed>>

Request 036

Herbicides, Furnish Any Documents Showing Exposure To Herbicides

Response 15

No Record Of Exposure To Herbicides

Sort of sad for 6 years, 9 months, and 6 days.

My thoughts. I don't know where I got the impression but I thought I would receive copies of everything. I did receive copies of available (?) personnel records, actually 4 Army forms. I did not realize until reading the first paragraph in the cover letter that they sent the original and only copy of the medical file to the VARO! Why not sent a copy to the VARO? That way they could have something to copy from and send me a copy also ! I guess the fire of 1973 has slipped their minds! I've had in a request to VARO under the Privacy Act for well over a month for a copy of my C file, which is I guess my only hope of seeing my medical records.

Which by the way brings up another matter. On February 18 I sent among other things, copies of 16 letters written home in 1968-1969 to the St Petersburg RO in support of my claim. Expected delivery date was February 22nd. I send certified but not

return receipt requested. I check for delivery online. When nothing showed up by the 28th I queeried the post office where I mailed from, they say call the post office in Bay Pines. Instead, I send a message to National USPS. After four days of the 2-3 days they say expect a response I call the 800# and light a fire under them. This evening about 1800 hours I get an email which in essence said the envelope is lost and sort of tough luck. No more certified for me. Good thing I sent copies and not the originals!

Sending everything registered mail only to VARO from now on.

Back to the 201 file business. On eBenefits it shows "Requested service personnel records that document awards, medals, decorations, military occupational specialties, campaigns, and assignments. Opened 12/20/2010 Date received 1/19/2011.

I originally thought they had sent for DD214s that I had submitted with the claim but not all that info is not on DD214. It is however on DA Form 20, the enlisted qualification record. So they had the DD214s on 7/6/2010 and they got the DA Form 20 by mail from NPRC sent out on 7/19/2010. So what were they doing requesting the same info on 12/20/2010 and waiting another month to get it!!

I also like the part where in talking about medical records it states," If you have your service treatment records already in your possession, please submit them. Original records are preferable to copies." I can't argue with the logic there but you won't find me turning over originals that are irreplacable to the VA or anyone else. I mean there is a fire hydrant just across the street and a fire station within 200 yards but you won't find me sitting on my bed lighting matches. I guess it's like Ron White says "You can't fix stupid."

I am also puzzled where they request "Herbicides, Furnish Any Documents Showing Exposure To Herbicides". I have not heard back from my "iris" request yet either where I asked that question directly. Any ideas?? I mean are they talking about assignment to Vietnam, a line unit on Korean DMZ, or something obscure like a letter signed by General Westmoreland stating he personally saw you get sprayed with AO?? I just don't get it. Perhaps someone can educate me.

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Why does it seem that my military records were the only ones to burn up in the St. Louis fire in 1973 :angry:

Papa

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Papa

Did you check with NARA on that yourself?

I have copies of "burned" St Louis fire SMRs here.

When the VA sees USAF and a specific date period they often assume the personnel and SMR records were burned in the fire.

I have had personal experience with 2 local vets that this is not always true and the VA does not always check with NARA first before they assume the records are gone.

Ascomdepot

"Response 15

No Record Of Exposure To Herbicides"

I dont think any vet to include those already in presumptive status has exposed to herbicides confirmed in any of their military records unless they themselves used the Hayes dispenser and/or had obvious MOS as to spraying the AO.

I have never seen AO exposure revealed in any military records.

For example My husband was Danang, USMC and where he claimed exposure (Ashau Valley 65-66) is clearly noted on the interactive AO spraying maps of Vietnam for that time frame published about a year ago (There is a link here)

But his mil record reveals nothing about the AO.

Vets trying to prove exposure to AO who dont fall into the presumptives need to do a lot of research to prove to VA that AO was used where they served and that their MOS directly put them in contact with it.

It certainly is not impossible and has been done.But I know vets who did it and it took a LOT of work.

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