A Chemical Makeup Question

[CCC]

Relatively new to my research here - only been doing this for about a year. I do have a question. If it sounds silly, please forgive me.

If one were doing research on certain Superfund sites, and found 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T on that particular site, would it be safe to assume that Agent Orange had been used at this site? Seeing as how 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T are the chemicals that make up Agent Orange?

Thanks in advance. :)

[Junior96]

I was stationed in NYC on Govoners Island while in the coast Guard. I was all over NY Harbor, had to jump in that nasty bay to save people trying to kill themselves (jumpers from bridges) and worked bouys while on a ship. I recently found out about the Diamond Alkali site, also GE dumped PCPs into Hudson, and at the time NY was only reclaiming -40% of their sewage. All my issues can be traced to these two toxins. I'm using reports from EPA and Riverkeepers to show that there are still toxins in the water. I was there from 1986-1990. Do you think I need nexus letter still? Had my C&p exam 2 days ago and it went well, everything was well documented

 

[jbasser]

2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (usually referred to by its abbreviation, 2,4-D) is a common systemic pesticide / herbicide used in the control of broadleaf weeds.

2,4,5-Trichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4,5-T), a synthetic auxin, is a chlorophenoxy acetic acid herbicide used to defoliate broad-leafed plants

[CCC]

2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (usually referred to by its abbreviation, 2,4-D) is a common systemic pesticide / herbicide used in the control of broadleaf weeds.

2,4,5-Trichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4,5-T), a synthetic auxin, is a chlorophenoxy acetic acid herbicide used to defoliate broad-leafed plants

Right, but a combination of equal parts of both is what makes up AO.

Would it be safe to assume that this was the case, or just assume that they used both, but not together?

[Berta]

There have only been 3 or 4 CONUS AO awards that I know of- one due to exposure at Fort Gordon (James Cripps award)

and 2 or possibly 3 due to exposure to AO at Fort McClelland. I posted those awards info here,available under a search.

I need to make a point here.

All CONUS AO awards and those awards to Thailand vets as well as 2 or 3 Okinawa AO vets (info all searchable here) regarded veterans who not only proved direct exposure to AO but also had presumptive disabilities.

Do you have a presumptive AO disability?

“If one were doing research on certain Superfund sites, and found 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T on that particular site, would it be safe to assume that Agent Orange had been used at this site? Seeing as how 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T are the chemicals that make up Agent Orange?”

This link has the entire Superfund Data Matrix ,that is updated up to March 2012

http://www.epa.gov/superfund/sites/npl/hrsres/tools/scdm.htm

AO has been the most important veteran's issue of my life since the original AO settlement fund in 1984 and my husband ,his best friend -both AO vets -Vietnam- and I, did as much research as we could when the news of the lawsuit against Dow and Monsanto came out. I still do research on AO.

In my opinion, it would not be “safe to assume that Agent Orange had been used at this site.”

VA doesn't care one hoot about Superfund sites or the chemical properties of dioxin.

You need to prove Agent Orange was used where you served and that your MOS directly exposed you to it, and that you have a presumptive AO disability.

Jim Cripps did an SVR show available here:

http://www.hadit.com/svr.html October 20,2012 with Jerrel Cook and John Basser.

I interviewed James for a radio show I did with another web site too. I was impressed with the considerable amount of research he did to prove AO was used at Fort Gordon and that his MOS exposed him to it. He has more than one AO presumptive disability. Jim went back to Fort Gordon many times to do research and presented VA with a claim that was highly probative and fully supported by evidence .(They did deny it many times but finally awarded it)He also had an IMO from a doctor who could find no other etiology for his chloracne but for AO. (Chloracne AO claims are almost impossible to win)

We have BVA decisions here on these CONUS AO awards and considerable other info on AO.

I assume you do have a condition on the AO presumptive list and I do not intend to discourage you in any way. I just want you to know how difficult this type of claim is, to succeed in.

But Nothing is impossible.

Have you attempted to get any buddy statements from anyone in your unit who might have sprayed the AO?

Was it sprayed on the perimeter? That is the obvious place they used it in locales outside of Vietnam.

How did your MOS put you on the perimeter? Is that supported by your 201 file?

Do you have any dated photos of the base that showed bare areas that should have had grass or weeds on them,near the perimeters?

Any photos of the distinct looking AO barrels?

Do you remember how the AO looked and smelled when it was used?

Was it mixed with anything else?

I assume this spraying was all done using a Hayes dispenser. Did you ever have duties involved in cleaning the Hayes dispensers or in moving and /or storing the AO barrels?

Would anyone else in your unit recall any of the above?

This type of evidence is what VA needs- proof positive of AO used where you served, and proof positive of your exposure, and medical records that show you have an AO presumptive condition.

Lots of work but leg work on a claim can pay off. As many of us here would agree.

[CCC]

He has Coronary Artery Disease (CAD), Diabetes Mellitus Type II and Ischemic heart disease. He was at Fort Gordon for MP training, and I don't know how long one would need to be in contact with it to be affected by it. The 2 chemicals that make up AO that I mentioned were found at Seneca Army Depot. He remembers a guy coming around spraying, saying it was AO, but there is no documentation stating that AO was actually used there - only the chemicals that make it up. The old man was spraying the fence line, and Hubs was guarding special weapons in a bunker by the fence line. The fence line had to be clear of vegetation for security purposes. This was in the early 70s.

The others I will read to him and see what he has to say, and will post back. Thanks again, Berta.

[CCC]

OK. I'm typing as he's talking LOL.

He was an MP in a secure area. They had 3 fences surrounding the area. The middle was electrified. There was absolutely no foliage on either the outside of the fenceline, in between the fences or the inside of the fenceline that was inside the security area. Fence #1 was the outside. Fence #2 was the middle fence that was electrified. Fence #3 was the fence within the secured area. At no time he was stationed there did he see any vegetation in the middle of fence 1 and 3. There was at least a 15' clearing on fence 1 and fence 3, for a total combined clearing of probably 40', including the area around fence 2. It was sprayed regularly by a civilian. The inside of the secured area was basically like a jungle - trees, weeds and so on. But the fenceline was clear, and the last time he was at Seneca, which was about 10 years ago, the area was still barren.

His MOS was an MP and he had to guard the secure area which was sprayed regularly to keep down the foliage and keep the fenceline clear. He never sprayed anything himself - never saw any barrels or sprayers or anything like that.

[Berta]

"He was at Fort Gordon for MP training"

If he falls into the time frame of this document for AO usage in Fort Gordon and had perimeter duty during the training, this fact might be the most significant area to focus on for his claim:

“Location: Fort Gordon, GA

Dates: 7/15/1967 - 7/17/1967

Project Description: During the period of 12/1966 - 10/1967, a comprehensive short-term evaluation was conducted by personnel from Fort Detrick's Plant Science Lab in coordination with contract research on formulations by chemical industry and field tests by USDA and U of HI.

Agents: In-house desiccants mixtures and formulations, Orange and Blue

DoD Involvement: Yes “

Source:http://www.publichealth.va.gov/exposures/agentorange/outside_vietnam_usa.asp

I am pretty sure this document was also used by James Cripps. His BVA decision might help you.

James Cripps BVA AO award:

http://www.va.gov/vetapp09/files5/0941553.txt

This is how Kurt Priessman won the very first AO Thailand claim too..he found positive proof that they used AO on his base and that his security details put him on the perimeter. He was a security dog handler.

We did many shows with Kurt at SVR, available here, and I recall Kurt telling me years ago how many of the dogs he

trained ,who also had perimeter duty,in Thailand, became quite ill and many died. I am sure it was due to their exposure to AO while on duty.

Kurt did extensive research starting from the Ranch Hand Study to include all available DOD papers he could find.

Although the focus of the Ranch Hand study was on Vietnam, and not on Thailand or any other potential AO site, he still found information,or hints as to where to find it, from this study.

"It was sprayed regularly by a civilian" that means a federal contractor might well have done the spraying.

It might pay to try to find federal contractors who were doing herbicide and weed control in these areas at the time of the spraying.

It is even possible that Monsanto or Dow was contracted to do some of this work on military bases.

The internet has made it easier than ever for veterans to find evidence to support their claims.

[Berta]

to add:

Not only Dow and Monsanto produced AO, but Diamond Alkali is now a Superfund site.

Since the spraying was done by a civilian, proof of the spraying might need to be found by researching all AO manufacturers.

“The Diamond Alkali Co. in Newark, New Jersey, was one of the major producers of Agent Orange for the government. Spurred by Pentagon officials to make their production schedules to "help the war effort," patriotic employees at Diamond Alkali eagerly sought to fill their quotas.

But some of Diamond Alkali's employees began suffering what were described as "painful and disfiguring" skin diseases, according to the doctor who treated more than 50 of the employees in the early and mid 1960s. “

http://www.usvetdsp.com/agentorange.htm

[CCC]

Thanks again, Berta. He didn't walk the perimeter at Ft. Gordon. He was just there for MP training.

I will look into the civilian contractors and see what was sprayed at Seneca and Ft. Ord.

You've given me some good ideas.

[Capt.]

Hello CCC and Berta and Jbasser.

Please check the topic I just bumped under this one for the list of Bases and Depots that AO was used in the United States. I took the list from the Training Seminar in Sept 1973 that I also posted here under AO and listed all of the posts/bases that personnel list that had to attend. So if someone is on that list then they had to attend the mandatory training seminar , so that means it was used . If you search the article and some of my AO posts you can even get the topic here of "Important DOD US Army Forms Chemcial and AO Application Forms" that I posted here on Dec 24 , 2008. The Forms that had to be used to spray AO and Chemical applications were....

AR 420-74

DD 1532

DA Form 2785 abd DA Form 2785-R Installation Natural Resources Report Part 1 Land Management (Including Soil and Water Conservation) AR 430-74

THESE ARE REPORTS THAT IF ANYONE HAS COPIES TO >>>PLEASE POST HERE AT HADIT.

CCC,,,,, it is imperative that you are able to link HOW you were exposed. The fact that it was there is probably not going to do it at this stage of the game. Berta is right on. Your MOS and or how you came in contact with it must be verified or supported. You can use Buddy Statements and such but Superfund Studies and cleanups are important with conjunction and ultimately must be tested in the Courts ........This could possibly tilt the Benefit of a Doubt, however at this point in time it will take alittle more evidence as for job , mos, buddy statements to tilt that scale.

I have filed numerous Freedom of Information Acts on these records with many agencies from US Army and down , and noone will give them out. They are under tight restraint and I have only seen one report linking any of the above Forms and they were posted here under Fort Greely Installation and Assesment Report Sept 1975" If anyone can get these from anywhere ,,,,,, please PLEASE POST THEM HERE and tell the rest of the forum how they obtained these very critical and important reports. It will help others to find these reports on where they were stationed. I believe you have a tough one to get these reports even though Fort Gordon was in the line of fire of AO.

I am working on a project right now with some Washington DC folks that I hope to get these reports and some others. WHEN I get this door open then we will post them and more. I already have the MOS and job with buddy statements to link it. As well as the Environmental cleanups and State and Federal Agencies stating that it was there. I hope you and others can find something concerning these reports as they are very important. Good luck with your claim and your perserverance I salute.

Thank you all again for your keeping this AO alive and going. God Bless, NEVER GIVE UP. C.C.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Capt.Contaminate (see edit history)

[buickx]

http://veteransinfo.org/epa.html

[CCC]

Thanks, CC. Will look into this once I get some coffee into me!

And thanks, Buick, as well.