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Question Of Nexus


Josephine

Question

  • HadIt.com Elder
Is this why the BVA may be questioning my nexus?

6. Dr. P. should be contacted and asked to provide the basis for his diagnosis of

the veteran, and whether he has any medical training or expertise in treating

or evaluating psychiatric disability.

Letter 1 by Dr. P. April 5, 2004

Department of Veterans Affairs:Re:

To whom it may concern:

______ has been a patient of mine since August 1979.

At the time of her initial presentation her major problem was chronic anxiety/depression. She reports a (five year history) of psychiatric care.

She recently has applied for disability benefits to the Department of Veterans Affairs by reason of her prior time in military service with the Navy 1963/1964

Her ongoing request for disability benefits center on whether or not her anxiety/depression is related to her prior time in service.

She has been granted entitlement to non-service pension.

I have a copy of her U.S. medical records, I also have a copy of a letter documenting an honorable discharge by reason of unsuitability, dated April 7, 1964. This time reflects the fact that she did have emotional problems while in service and had been referred for psychiatric consultation by a board certified psychiatrist.

It is my considered medical opinion that her subsequent problems with anxiety/depression have been of a magnitude to adversely affect her overall health and result in disability. It is also my considered medical opinion those problems had their origin during the time of military service.

I urge reconsideration of a decision for service connected disability by reason of her chronic anxiety with depression.

I just noticed this typing error, it should read (fifteen year).

Letter 2 by Dr. P. April 28, 2006

To whom it may concern:

The above is currently undergoing an appeal process with The board of Veterans Affairs.

This letter is written as an addendum to previously written letters dated April 5, 2004, in regards to her current appeal with the Department of Veterans Affairs.

The basis for my previous noted diagnosis of this veteran was based on knowledge of personal interactions, history taking and physical examinations going back to 1979. I am aware of the fact by reviewing all the military records of the veteran that the patient was treated with Librium and Caffergot while in the military service. 1964, presumptively for treatment of anxiety and depression and associated headaches, by Dr. BCC, followed by two psychiatric consultations thus leading to her early discharge.

The veteran has been on anti-anxiety medication from 1967 to date thus make it plausible that I am correct. I have maintained all of the veteran's civilian records from 1965 to date and all of her military records to date.

As I have previously stated, It is my considered medical opinion that her subsequent problems with anxiety/depression have been of a significant magnitude to adversely affect her overall health and result in disability.

I have no specific training in Psychiatry, but I have the usual level of expertise that would be expected in an internist, board certified, in 1976 and actively practicing internal medicine since that time.

I graduated from the University of Florida Medical School in 1973, was board certified in internal medicine in 1976 and have remained in active practice since that time.

Sincerely,

J.M. P

7. After the above development has been completed, the veteran's claims file

should returned to the board of VA psychiatrists who participated in the

April 2005 examination for clarification of the provided opinion. They should be

requested to review the record and reconcile their opinion as to etiology in

light of the evidence added since their examination of the veteran, including the

May 2005 statement of Dr. B C. C and the January 2006 statement of

Dr. M P.

This is why my claims file is at the Medical Center on the Male Psychiarist desk to follow this section of the remand.

To my knowledge, there is to be no further examination.

Thanks,

Josephine

Edited by Josephine (see edit history)
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I am not sure I understand the question of nexus---

Although a doctor can attest to the treatment and diagnosis of a condition,and they can support a nexus by mentioning what stressors the veteran reported but an actual nexus still has to be proven in most cases.

This is why the BVA, in the remand, asked for clarification on the incident involving Doris.I believe they were looking for any nexus that could be proven.

Anything that caused inservice anxiety or depression is the nexus (link) to service.

It could be an inservice auto accident, harrassment, sexual trauma, combat events, any one of many things.

Witnessing the death of another serviceperson could certainly be a stressor and this is why I think they (BVA)asked for more information on the pool incident with Doris.

Any evidence of highly abusive treatment inservice is a stressor.

But the VA always wants proof of the stressor unless it is a combat stressor consistent with DD 214 awards or the combat MOS, etc.

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  • HadIt.com Elder
I am not sure I understand the question of nexus---

Although a doctor can attest to the treatment and diagnosis of a condition,and they can support a nexus by mentioning what stressors the veteran reported but an actual nexus still has to be proven in most cases.

This is why the BVA, in the remand, asked for clarification on the incident involving Doris.I believe they were looking for any nexus that could be proven.

Anything that caused inservice anxiety or depression is the nexus (link) to service.

It could be an inservice auto accident, harrassment, sexual trauma, combat events, any one of many things.

Witnessing the death of another serviceperson could certainly be a stressor and this is why I think they (BVA)asked for more information on the pool incident with Doris.

Any evidence of highly abusive treatment inservice is a stressor.

But the VA always wants proof of the stressor unless it is a combat stressor consistent with DD 214 awards or the combat MOS, etc.

Berta,

If the Psychiatrist in service refuse to write down what you are saying, then you are just up the creek without a paddle.

My buddy letter failed to write down about my personality. Of course she wouldn't be qualifed anyway.

She was just present with the swimming pool and with Doris and with the Physicians in D. C.

She isn't a doctor. I haven't seen J in 23 years.

I believe that you are saying, She needed to be a doctor to be of any benefit.

The question still remains" Why Was Dr. C. giving me Cafferfot and Librium in Service?

I really don't know what happened to Doris? She was lying on the right side of the pool, when I was ordered to leave.

I was so busy fighting for my own life and this wasn't a one time thing either. I guess that is why I had that Psycho flash back as Wings called it, when the Psychaitrist ask me about the pool. I went to the beach one year and stayed in the hotel, with a sofa in front of the sliding glass door, for fear of the pool below.

At least when this is all said and done, I know that there was a Dr. M at the Va. that believed what I was saying.

Thanks,

Josephine

Edited by Josephine (see edit history)
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"She was just present with the swimming pool and with Doris and with the Physicians in D. C.

She isn't a doctor. I haven't seen J in 23 years.

I believe that you are saying, She needed to be a doctor to be of any benefit"

No- Josephine- she didnt need to be a doctor at all-

the VA looks for eye witness accounts, preferably notarized statements with the "buddy" stating their full name,address, and anything to show they served with the veteran's unit and did witness any stressful account.

The above statement that she was present at these incidents would satisfy that she witnessed them if she gave details as to when and where and how she was present too-in a

unit exercise or whatever put her there with you and that she too witnessed this stressful event.

A vet I helped locally got in touch with a buddy through his unit web site.. The "buddy" stated he was present at the same stressful incident, gave his unit etc-and service dates, to show VA his was certainly with the veteran at the time and place of the incident, and ironically the buddy gets PTSD SC comp for the very same incident and told the VA his c file number to check this if they needed to.

He notarized the statement and gave the VA his home phone and cell phone and email addy to verify this with him if they needed to.

He also added a very detailed account of the incident which was just like what the vet had put into his stressor letter.

The vet I helped got PTSD service connected due mainly to this buddy statement.

Eye witness accounts that are notarized and give details and put the eye witness when and where the veteran claiming the stressor was are very helpful and also proof , in most cases, of a stressor.

The BVA remand-it seemed to me was looking for more information on the death of the veteran 'Doris' and I believe I mentioned some time back that her picture would be in your basic training graduation book

and it would give her last name and could be verified.Anyone who served in your unit would probably remember this incident.

I only mention this as the BVA did and it seemed that they wanted some verification of this incident which would be a very stressful one for anyone who knew of it.

"In a letter directed to President Bush, and received into the

file in August 2005, the veteran, referring to episodes in

service where she almost drowned, stated that a woman with

whom she trained, "Doris," did drown. The veteran should

be asked if she can provide any further information as to

Doris' last name, and the approximate date and location where

the alleged drowning took place, so that this event can be

confirmed. "

They mention this again in the remand- and this -in my opinion- is the main stressor that the BVA wanted confirmed-

If the statement you have from the woman you mention- "j"- states all this and she was an eye witness -and the details that the BVA mentioned as to time and place, last name etc- anything else that would help-

can be given to the VA-they can verify this as a valid stressor and that would satisfy the stressor element of your claim.

Did she notarize and detail her statement? If not it would not be too late to support this stressor by reaching her again.

This would be the nexus or link to your service.

Service connection -if not proven by combat awards, involves

1. documentaed current diagnosed disability

2. proof of inservice event that caused the disability.(the nexus)

On remands I feel that the veteran should do whatever they can to give the VA what the BVA has remanded for.

Some stuff a remand leaves up to the RO but it sure pays to carefully go over any remand for all the things that are missing.

Edited by Berta (see edit history)
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  • HadIt.com Elder
Did she notarize and detail her statement? If not it would not be too late to support this stressor by reaching her again.

This would be the nexus or link to your service.

Service connection -if not proven by combat awards, involves

1. documentaed current diagnosed disability

2. proof of inservice event that caused the disability.(the nexus)

On remands I feel that the veteran should do whatever they can to give the VA what the BVA has remanded for.

Some stuff a remand leaves up to the RO but it sure pays to carefully go over any remand for all the things that are missing.

The two medical psychiatrist discounted her as an eye witness, as she didn't state my personality.

She gave her name, service number, phone number and address. She did not notarize the letter, as no one said for her to. I turned this letter into the R. O and it does have a date stamp on it.

DR. M acknowledged the letter and referenced her in his C&P of More Likely than Not.

I noticed the BVA did not mention her letter.

She was with me in boot camp, corps school and D. C. She saw it all and she wrote it all. Those shrinks said that she did not address my personality. She wasn't witnessing my personality only the events as they happened.

They can check her service records and see that she took an overdose of my medication and was taken to the dispensary by the M.P.'S.

I gave the the Va. the letter and envelope, by DR. C. He gave me those coded drugs for a reason. I have only spoke to him twiced in 42 years. He thought that I was already drawing benefits at discharge.

I shall assume that they called him, he isn't difficult to locate at the Mayo Clinic in Minn.

This is a mess and a maze and I will never win it.

I figure the two Psychiatrist will come up with some cock and bull story and it will be over. I am tired of all of this. Dr. C. has offered to go as far as I need him to , but it seems hopeless.

I have the drugs and the symtoms in my sick bay records and no diagnosis.

Thanks for answering me,

Josephine

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  • HadIt.com Elder

Josephine,

The question still remains" Why Was Dr. C. giving me Cafferfot and Librium in Service?

This is long. However, I do address your question with my experiences.

There is more than one way to win a claim like yours. I had very similar situations. Life threatening stressor and several visits to military shrinks. I was discharged for emotionally unstable personality disorder. The life threatening attack was reported to the barracks MAA. However, no report was taken by the MAA. The MAA thought it was a funny joke. I woke up from a sound sleep and could not breath for 2+ minutes. Someone in the barracks filled my mouth with shaving cream. I am a mouth breather and have an airway disease. The shaving cream caused a laryngeal spasm, AKA dry drowning. Laryngeal spasms kill 1000’s of people every year. My airway condition makes me susceptible to laryngeal spasms. I developed a sleep disorder and could not sleep in a barracks. I moved off base. A military doctor thought that I appeared anxious and referred me to a shrink. I did not ask to see the shrink. The shrink said I had a personality disorder and recommended a discharge to my CO. Instead I was sent to mess duty for three months. For the next nine I returned to work as an ejection seat mechanic. My CO sent me to mess duty because he was pissed that he heard about my problems from a doctor rather than me talking to him. Also he thought that punishment would do me some good and help me get over my problems.

The problem was that I had a disease that in 1968 was called “angioneurotic edema”. It was listed in the DSM III as a psychiatric condition. The dispensary doctor kept telling me I was crazy. After I was discharged the AMA dropped the diagnosis of “angioneurotic edema” from the DSM. The disease is now called angioedema. It is a medical condition. My CO could have sent me to mess duty for three years and it would not have “cured” me.

I had three workups by military shrinks. All said personality disorder. I took these reports to a VA psychiatrist and had her review the SMR and write a report. She tore the military shrinks apart. It was very easy because all the symptoms and history taken by the military shrinks did not have anything to do with a personality disorder and specifically supported the fact that I had been attacked in the barracks. She gave me a multiple diagnosis of PTSD due to life threatening night time attack and anxiety disorder due to a chronic life threatening medical condition called angioedema. And anxiety disorder that clearly was the result of military service. The DRO sent me to a C&P. The C&P supported the diagnosis of anxiety disorder clearly the result of military service and chronic life threatening angioedema that was already service connected. Technically I was re-diagnosed with an anxiety disorder based on the symptoms noted in the three reports written by military shrinks.

The RO totally ignored the PTSD diagnosis because there was no police report. They could not separate the expected lifestyle changes caused by a chronic life threatening medical condition from excessive anxiety associated with an anxiety disorder caused by the medical condition and the anxiety disorder that started in the military and pre dated the onset of life threatening angioedema. Since there were no valid diagnoses that pointed to a non military etiology and all diagnosis were the result of service and a medical condition that was already service connected. The final determination was “Angioedema with anxiety 70%”. I have other SC’d conditions

All this to explain that you are on the right track with the question you asked about the medications prescribed to you in the military. In my opinion, the events in the military are not the issue. The RO is trying to resolve the case based on a verifiable stressor. Get them their info if you can. However, in my opinion, the treatment notes from the military shrinks must be re interpreted as being part of a condition that affects you today and is not a personality disorder.

My question was who is DR C. If he was a military doctor what diagnosis did he put in the SMR if not a military doctor do you have his notes and what do they say. One problem that I ran into was that several of the doctors in the military refused to put the diagnosis of “angioneurotic edema” in my file. I had several dispensary notes that showed that I came to sick call with no explanation as to why I was there. They said it would cause a problem for promotions later in my career. Fortunately, two weeks before my discharge I saw a specialist who made the diagnosis in his report and prescribed the same medications that have been prescribed for the last 35 years for angioedema. My first record of post service treatment was 7 years after discharge. Without that diagnosis and the medications prescribed two weeks before my discharge every SO I talked to said I would have never been service connected. Additionally, I would have had a serious non service related cause of anxiety and any anxiety condition would also have not been service connected.

I said this before the med connection is very important to your claim. However, I have seen cases where a veteran was service connected for an acquired psychiatric condition 15 years after being discharged for a personality disorder and no meds were prescribed in the military. It was determined that the in service symptoms were early symptoms of the condition diagnosed 15 years later.

To clarify one other statement you made. You said the claim has been open since 1978 or there about. What is the claim date according to the VA’s computer. The answer to this question could open a whole new area of debate.

Hang in there. Don’t let this run you down. It can do it. They ran me around for 8.5 years. I am surprised I survived.

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  • HadIt.com Elder
To clarify one other statement you made. You said the claim has been open since 1978 or there about. What is the claim date according to the VA’s computer. The answer to this question could open a whole new area of debate.

Hi Hoppy,

What a wonderful person you are.

When I was discharged from service, I was told that I would be giving up any G.I benefits. This is signed a paper to and believed.

Anyway, I filed for Anxiety, Depression and Headaches in 1978 and a counselor sent me a letter - You are not service connected.

I filed again in 2002 - No service connection.

2003 I was granted a pension stating " we find you to be disabled back to 1983. This time, I said no way.

I went to the R. O and demanded to see my records, The more they refused, the more I insisted, until I made a bit of a scene.

They got the file though and I noticed that my Comptency Review Records were not in the file, I ask the counselor and he said that was all the records. I said," Boy the psychiatrist didn't think much of me. Perhaps you could help me locate Dr. C. He said no way, he is most likely retired.

I came home and wrote to the St. Louis Archives and the Psychiatric Records came and a letter from my commanding Officer describing my early discharge.

I turned copies of these in to the R. O in 2004 and within one month, I received a letter that my file was re-opened. Within 3 months, I received a statement of the case stating " This is not the DRO Final Decision, but I am sending you a form 9 to return within 60 days and we are sending you for a C&P for an Acquired Pschiatric Disorder.

The form 9 was turned back into the Va. before the C&P. I just wrote down anything that I could think of, that I had not had a C&P and Etc.

I had the first C&P and was found with the Generalized Anxiety Disorder with a More likely than Not.

Immediately my file was transferred to another state.

5 months later , I had that dumb C&P with those two lying psychaitrist. Nothing bothered her in service.

It was my turning in records never seen by the Va. that opened my claim and I don't know if it is open or closed.

I went to the internet and looked for Dr.B.B C. and I located him and here is a copy of his letter. I turned in a copy of his letter and envelope to the R.O and the Medical Center, due to that hypnotic C&P.

My claims file is now with the two lying Psychiatrist to reconcile their differences and to rationale their decision of me and to read his letter and give the BVA a new opinion.

May 15, 2004

To whom it may concern:

_________ Formerly ---- , has requested that I write documenting my care of her during the period of

February and March, 1964, at the U.S ___ She was an enlisted person and I was a general Medical Officer, practicing at that facility. The question she has asked me to address is whether I helped her obtain a discharge from the Navy.

_____________ has provided from her medical records as well as recent letter to me, which is undated. My evaluation of her on 2/20/64 and a follow up visit on 2 / 27/ 64 are available. Two Psychiatric consultations are also available for review. The first performed on 3/12/64 by DR. J and the second performed by Dr. M. Finally the letter by our C.) recommends an Honorable Discharge by reason of unsuitability. My understanding is that the discharge occurred shortly thereafter.

After phone discussion with ____, I did remember her as an enlisted person at the ______ with whom I had worked on occasion. My workup of 2/20/64 concluded that she had tension versus vascular headaches and I added a tranquilizer to her headache medicine for anxiety. The note from 2/ 27/ 64 documents that the lab test were normal and I recognize my personal shorthand in my notes that I often used for a counseling session. After 40 years I do not remember whether I started the process discharge, but suspect I may have been supportive. She had seen a Navy Psychiatrist on 3/12/64 with no indication of further workup or return. Two weeks later she saw another psychiatrist to whom I frequently referred patients who needed special understanding and sensitivity. While there is no documentation that I referred her, the fact that she saw Dr. M scarcely two weeks after with no worsening of condition does suggest to me that I may have sent her for the evaluation relative to discharge.

Both C H and Dr. M comment on ----- immaturity and that she was uncooperative in her duties. After she reminded me and recalled specific instances. I did recall that she baby - sat in our home on multiple occasions with our two children ages 2 and 1. I know that my wife and I would have not allowed her to stay with the children if there had been any question of her suitability. The ___ staff was close knit and I would have likely been made aware of any poor behavior on ______ part.

While my memory does not allow me confident documentation of my role in her discharge there is circumstantial evidence that her story is credible and I hope that you will give her case every consideration..

BCC M.D.

Edited by Josephine (see edit history)
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  • HadIt.com Elder

Josephine,

"My workup of 2/20/64 concluded that she had tension versus vascular headaches and I added a tranquilizer to her headache medicine for anxiety. The note from 2/ 27/ 64 documents that the lab test were normal and I recognize my personal shorthand in my notes that I often used for a counseling session."

This statement is better evidence than I have seen in other cases that were service connected. Have they denied you since this was put into evidence or is this new evidence. The trick is getting them to say the anxiety and somatic headaches are early symptoms of the anxiety disorder you have today and represent onset while serving in the military. That statement that you might have signed away benefits is also very scarry. Did that really happen and is it enforceable.

It sounds like your earlier claims were denied and unappealed. That would result in them closing the claim and your situation now is that you are working on a re-opened claim. I heard that technically it will always be a re-opened claim rather than a new claim.

It sounds like the letter you posted was not available to the two lying shrinks when they made their previous denial. If so, they might have a reason to service connect. Some of these docotrs think of weird ways to shoot you down. If they do this it might take yet another workup by another shrink. If you win it sounds like you will get a claim date after 2004. The only way to get an earlier one is of there is some type of CUE. I am no expert on CUE's and that is a bridge to cross when you get there.

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  • HadIt.com Elder

Josephine,

Just to mention. It sounds like you did a lot of development of your claim by finding this doctor and getting the letter. My recollection is that you did this work before you found hadit. In any event that is the type of evidence you need. My SO, who as far as I am concerned is the best there is, kept saying that we will get any medical evidence necessary to jam it at them in a way that they can not deny the claim. It just takes persistence and getting some doctors on your side.

There was another letter where the doctor explained his qualifications. Has that letter been submitted to the RO. That is the type of information to submit.

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  • HadIt.com Elder

Hoppy,

I found out later, that I did not sign away anything. It was all a lie.

No, I talked to the BVA and The AMC and the claim of 1978 was never adjudicated.

About the only information on that claim is what I have sent them copies of. The Va never secured my Psychiatric records from the St. Louis Archives on any of my filing dates. I did this for them in 2004.

Up until that date - I had nothing in my file to connect me to anything. There was no notation in my SMR'S of their existence, but I knew that what I went through to get the early discharge.

Anyway, back to your question. The R.O saw Dr. C. letter, but not the two lying psychiatrist.

I only contacted him after that C&P, when the lady psychaitrist stated, that the command instigated my discharge and that I did not go to Dr. C. about assisting me with a discharge. She said that I had article 15's, but denied them and that I was a behavior problem.

No, Only the AMC has sent the letters from Dr. P. He also wrote one other letter stating that after treating me for 29 years that she was patently incorrect in her facts of my personality disorder.

The two lying psychiatrist are looking at Dr. C's letter and Dr. P. per the remand.

How a person have so many things go wrong in a claim, I will never know.

That poor old form 9 was at the BVA almost two years, before they gave me a denial of benefits. Why the DRO sent me a letter. Statement of the Case with a form 9 to return in 60 days and state, it appears that you may have a personality disorder and then state that I was going for a C&P. The form 9 was turned in before the C&P and then the Va. doctor ruled in my favor. More likely than not. The claim has been going since 2002. The remand makes no sense. Absolutely none!!

File was immediately transferred out to another state. Some one should have adjudicated his C&P before they ordered me another one.

I hope to be at the end of this thing within the next few weeks.

Thanks a bunch, Hoppy, Actually I was Josephine under the old site. I remember Berta and Pete. In those days, one could email each other back and forth and not post everything on line.

I still wish that I knew who David Star is? He wrote to me and told me to watch out for the triangle. I didn't know what he meant at the time, but I do now.

Have a good one and bless you,

Josephine

Edited by Josephine (see edit history)
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  • HadIt.com Elder
Thanks a bunch, Hoppy, Actually I was Josephine under the old site. I remember Berta and Pete. In those days, one could email each other back and forth and not post everything on line. I still wish that I knew who David Star is? He wrote to me and told me to watch out for the triangle. I didn't know what he meant at the time, but I do now.

Josephine, You can STILL e-mail members FREELY.

The rationale behind posting on-line is that more than one member(s) may contribute to a solution; furthering the concept that the sum is greater than the parts! If a member posts a contribution that cites incorrect law or regulation, they can be corrected before the claim advances through the system. Posting questions on-line also helps to learn from success and failure!

NOTHING prohibits members from private email never has been a rule, unwritten or otherwise that discourages private communications! ~Wings

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  • HadIt.com Elder

Wings,

I certainly didn't mean to offend you, by that comment.

Maybe when I was Josephine on the old site, The Va. had not put me through so much and I was a bit intimidated to let the guys, on the site, know that I wet my pants over the doctor jerking me by the neck and just how horrible the Navy was for me.

I am pleased that for the most part, service women, have adjusted, but I didn't.

Wings,

After all the Va. has put me through, there is not stopping me. It was definitely hypnosis that the two psychiatrist put me through and it is not what I told them that bothers me, it is what have they planted into my head.

After that session, it seems that I have became so much more nervous about fighting them, for what I feel is right.

I am pleased that the BVA did not let those two off the hook and just order me a new C&P and that they are making them account to their actions.

It took me a little time to understand how to post, and I will admit, that I did make my share of errors in posting, but I have that figured out now.

Always,

Josephine

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Wings,

I certainly didn't mean to offend you, by that comment.

Maybe when I was Josephine on the old site, The Va. had not put me through so much and I was a bit intimidated to let the guys, on the site, know that I wet my pants over the doctor jerking me by the neck and just how horrible the Navy was for me.

I am pleased that for the most part, service women, have adjusted, but I didn't.

Wings,

After all the Va. has put me through, there is not stopping me. It was definitely hypnosis that the two psychiatrist put me through and it is not what I told them that bothers me, it is what have they planted into my head.

After that session, it seems that I have became so much more nervous about fighting them, for what I feel is right.

I am pleased that the BVA did not let those two off the hook and just order me a new C&P and that they are making them account to their actions.

It took me a little time to understand how to post, and I will admit, that I did make my share of errors in posting, but I have that figured out now.

Always,

Josephine

I'm just sayin' that you are FREE to contact any member bt private email ...

As for the VA Examiner's hypnotizing you ... I gotta tell you the story raises a BIG RED FLAG for me !!

I'm not saying this didn't happen, I have read cases of SEXUAL ASSAULT during an Exam!!

How do you expect us to react to your allegations that you were hypnotized against your will during a VA Exam?! My PTSD would have THEM wetting their pants !!

Sister, if you're certain this happened to you, and your not just talking through your mental illness, then PLEASE REPORT IT TO THE AUTHORITIES !! And I don't mean write a letter of complaint to the VARO. Have you filed a 1151 Claim; spoken with the Inspector General; contacted a Woman Veterans Coordinator; emailed the Center for Women Veterans; how about your Congress Woman?! Did you make a police report?!

Seems like you have a good, long-term friend in your Private Psychiatrist - - what's he got to say about the hypnosis incident?!

I feel BAD for your struggle through the claims process, and we are here to help as we are able, but what you are reporting here is a BIG TRIGGER for other Women Vets - - you are suggesting some VERY SERIOUS allegations.

I don't ever want another women veteran to be or feel alone and afraid at the VAMC. With a history of personal assault, you should not get medical attention from only female examiners!

PLEASE do not yank my chain and make me jump into a fight if you are not 100% certain ... I will have your back, but you better be talking from the better side of sanity !!

What have you done about this incident so far??? ~Wings

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I'm not saying this didn't happen, I have read cases of SEXUAL ASSAULT during an Exam!!

How do you expect us to react to your allegations that you were hypnotized against your will during a VA Exam?!

My PTSD would have THEM wetting their pants !!

Sister, if you're certain this happened to you, and your not just talking through your mental illness, then PLEASE REPORT IT TO THE AUTHORITIES !! And I don't mean write a letter of complaint to the VARO. Have you filed a 1151 Claim; spoken with the Inspector General; contacted a Woman Veterans Coordinator; emailed the Center for Women Veterans; how about your Congress Woman?! Did you make a police report?!

Seems like you have a good, long-term friend in your Private Psychiatrist - - what's he got to say about the hypnosis incident?!

I feel BAD for your struggle through the claims process, and we are here to help as we are able, but what you are reporting here is a BIG TRIGGER for other Women Vets - - you are suggesting some VERY SERIOUS allegations.

I don't ever want another women veteran to be or feel alone and afraid at the VAMC. With a history of personal assault, you should not get medical attention from only female examiners!

PLEASE do not yank my chain and make me jump into a fight if you are not 100% certain ... I will have your back, but you better be talking from the better side of sanity !!

What have you done about this incident so far??? ~Wings

Wings,

This is exactly what I have done. I sent a notarized letter to the Medical Center to the Supervisor of the Patient Advocate. I spoke with him and his assistant. He filed a report and I received a letter back from the Director to file my complaint with the Office of the General Council.

I called first, as I had my letter typed and the first thing she said. You will never be able to prove anything, as there was two of them and one of you, so you would be just wasting your time. She said before you ever enter a room again with two doctors of any kind, scream, kick or be removed by the guards, but never do it again.

She is absolutely correct!

Where is the proof?

Next, I sent all the details to the BVA with a diagram of the room, as to where the male sit and where the lady shrink set and where I was seated.

I wrote them of everything that I could remember that went on in that room. There is a lot that I do not remember.

I never even knew that I was going for a C&P examination, as I had one C&P earlier with a male psychologist and we were alone!! No one else was in that room and he was of the highest intergrity.

As soon as his report came into the R.O. I was transferred to another state, as my niece is supervior of the DRO'S. She told me that she had signed off on my file when I was in the rating board, and I had no reason to not believe her.

I received a letter in the mail, to which I have the original, reminder of your clinic appointment at the medical center.

I was to be there at 8:00 and my husband drove me the 130 miles. When I arrived the receptionist wanted to know what I was doing there.

I showed her the piece of paper and she beeped and a lady doctor came up and insisted on a financial statement.

The receptionist then told me to have a seat. I went back to the empty waiting room and the lady doctor came for me and my husband ask to be present.

She said No.

I followed her down this long hall way and went into this room, and the male doctor came in. The chairs were all green leather and arranged in the strangest manner that I have ever seen.

I picked the chair to the far corner under the window, as I remember the venetian blinds. The lady doc, took the chair in the opposite corner facing me and the male sit at a desk to my far right.

I had to turn around in my seat to see him.

I was always looking at her.

He always spoke, she never said one word, the whole time that I was in the room, or when she walked me out to leave.

We had idle conversation at first and then all of a sudden, the male doctors voice changed and I thought it was so strange and that is when he said " tell me about the pool"?

This is where things go to a blur.

I see myself walking across the room to the wall and the next thing that I know, I remember standing in the center of the floor and screaming about the pool. " I caught myself and looked at them and ask them" can you swim"?

I have no ideal of how I got out of that chair, how I walked to the middle of the floor and how I even stood in the middle of the floor, as my balance is so badly, that the walls have to hold me up.

I could never do this. I have no ideal of how I made it back to the chair. The exam was carried in this manner.

I remember him saying" show me how to kick a wall"? I remember doing it.He said "Tell me about Doris"?

What about your dad"?

He only spoke in sentences of 3 or 4 words.

Again, I say the lady psychiatrist never once said a word the whole time that I was in the room.

I know that I said to them" You may think that I do not know who you are, but you are doctors for the Veterans Administration".

I have no ideal of why I said this.

I can hear the male doctor saying" we will have your results in in about 3 days.

The lady walked me out.

My husband was in the waiting room. He walked me to the car. The first thing he said in the car" tell me about the examination. Then I realized that I couldn't even remember their names and I was so confused.

I ran back into the medical center and told the receptionist that something was wrong that I needed to see a doctor or someone. A nurse came for me and ask me what was wrong. I told her that I couldn't remember a thing about my C&P, she said oh, your treatment. I said maybe I have had a stroke. She checked my blood pressure and my sugar level and they were fine.

She told me to wait until I felt better before I left.

My husband drove me to our daughers home about 35 miles away and I kept repeated to them. " I will never have another C&P examination, for the money isn't worth it.

My husband called the male doctor and he said that I would be fine in about 3 days and that I would begin to remember his name and things.

I stayed there about an hour and then went 10 miles to my other daughters home. The same thing happened. This went on all day. My husband called the doctor again, and he said that he had told me to take a nap.

Of course, I didn't, because I was afraid to.

Went home the next morning and the nurse from the medical center called to see how I was and my husband told her about the same.

Wings,

I have reported it all to the BVA and I have been told to let the doctors work through this. My file is with them now. I have no ideal of why the male doctor refused to sign the examination and the BVA wants a new opinion. I have a signed letter from the nurse that saw me that day of how I was after my treatment.

What does my doctor say" Why did you sign to let them do it? I didn't.

It happened and there is nothing that I can do about it. There was no tape recorder, no camera, the patient advocate said that they did not take any notes.

My advice is for no one to walk into a room with two doctors alone.

No matter what sex you are.

I certainly don't have any intentions of frightening anyone into going to a VAMC, but this is what happened to me.

Josephine

Edited by Josephine (see edit history)
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Josephine

My advice is to get your service connection. Worry about the "out of body experience" later. Get service connected and then start a fight with the VA about hyponosis. Focus on getting SC'ed for anxiety and depression that is supported by your SMR's and the doctor who knew you when you were in service. Keep it to that so you can get your foot in the door. Once you get SC'ed then go directly towards IU.

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My opinion is that psychiatrists are just a prone to corruption as any other group of people. I went to school with these people. I took pre-med classes and a lot of psychology classes. Some of these folks are bent on proving something. Cloud be anything, they are just trying to prove something. The feds shut down a cardiac clinic at the VA in West LA because they were performing experimental procedures on cardiac patients without their consent.

I am sure many of us remember all the chat on hadit about the LSD experiments that came out on CBS. That was back in the late 60's and 70's. They were giving active duty people LSD without their knowledge because they were trying to develop a truth serum to use of the enemy combatants.

Last night it actually occurred to me if Josephine ran into some renegade shrink who was working on some theory he had and gave her a drug without her knowing it. Some of these date rape drugs leave people in a daze for a real long time.

It would be hard to prove, but like Wings said having it investigated would not hurt. That is as long as you stay cool. Some times I think that Josephine should be in group treatment to work some of these things out. I think it would be hard to trust an individual therapist after what we go through with these claims.

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John999,

My claims file is with the two psychiatrist, at the medical center, and has been with them since the first of October. This is by the order of the BVA.

Reconcile your differences, as there are legal issues to resolve. Explain the tranposing of medical information and go directly by the medical records.

As to whether or not they rule in my favor this time, is entirely in their hands.

The statement nothing bothered her in service is not plausible with the medications of librium and caffergot in the sick bay records and the letter by my military treating physician.

I have already been declared 100% disabled since 1983, when they awarded me the pension.

Thanks bunches!!

Josephine

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Hoppy,

The strangest thing about all of this, I would have no hesitation of every entering a room again with the first Phd. Psychologist that gave me my first C&P.

There was a certain trust that he conveyed to me.

As I told the BVA, he conducted himself with the highest of integrity.

As I told the BVA. I would never enter a room at the center with two doctors again. They have assured me that this will never happen again.

If I am to have another C&P, I also want a letter stating that I am to be having a C&P to whom it is with and how many doctors, and that I do not want it to be a reminder of my clinic appointment.

As I told John, my claims file is with the two psychiatrist and it is all in their hands now.

The AMC and BVa have assured me that they are representing me in this.

Thanks bunches!

Josephine

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x

x

x

Josephine, I am not going to aplogize for being horrified at the thought of your being hypnotized or God forbid, drugged at a VA Hospital - without your consent!! You do not need to apologize to anyone for your claim or your feelings . . .

I would very much like for you to feel safe and respected during your VA medical treatment. I will remain distraught and affected over your reports until I hear of some resolution!! May God be with you.

Here's some additional names, numbers available as options.

I once called Ms. Fox (below); she spoke with me for some time about the VA's policy on "informed consent". She was a nice lady or I caught her on a good day; I felt respected and was treated cordially.

The other number you may already have: VAOIG

There's a snippet on VA 1151 claim and an offer for a free consultation, why not call?

If there's anything I can do to help, please feel free to ask. ~Wings

1. Call the VAOIG Hotline: 1-800-488-8244

8:30am–4:00pm Eastern Time, Monday–Friday

Write the VAOIG Hotline:

VA INSPECTOR GENERAL HOTLINE (53E)

P.O. BOX 50410

WASHINGTON, DC 20091-0410

E-mail the VAOIG Hotline: vaoighotline@va.gov

2. READ: Department of Veterans Affairs VHA HANDBOOK 1004.1, Washington, DC 20420 January 29, 2003, VHA INFORMED CONSENT FOR CLINICAL TREATMENTS AND PROCEDURES

http://www.ethics.va.gov/ETHICS/docs/polic...cy_20030129.pdf

Speak to: Ellen Fox, MD: Director of VA National Center for Ethics in Health Care

Ellen Fox, MD, is a general internist who has concentrated on issues of health care ethics throughout her career. Her scholarly work has focused on three main areas: medical ethics education, end of life issues, and evaluation of ethics consultation practices. Originally from Arlington, VA, she majored in Psychology at Yale, graduated from Harvard Medical School, and received her Internal Medicine Residency training at Yale, where she also served as Chief Resident. After completing a fellowship in ethics at the MacLean Center for Clinical Medical Ethics at the University of Chicago, Dr. Fox joined the MacLean Center's core faculty. She next moved to the University of Illinois at Chicago, where she served three years as Director of the Program in Clinical Ethics and Assistant Professor of Medicine and Medical Education. In 1997 she became Director of End-of-Life Care at the American Medical Association's Institute for Ethics. In this capacity, she led the Institute's Education for Physicians on End of Life Care (EPEC) Project. In 1999 Dr. Fox moved to Washington, DC and assumed her current role with the Department of Veterans Affairs.

National Center for Ethics in Health Care

Veterans Health Administration (10E)

810 Vermont Ave., NW

Washington, DC 20420

Phone: (202) 501-0364

Fax: (202) 501-2238

Email: vhaethics@va.gov

3. File a VA 1151 Claim ... from the Law Office of W. Robb Graham, "If a medical error has been committed by a Veterans Administration hospital, doctor, physician’s assistant, nurse or health care provider, that has seriously affected your condition, call my toll free number for a free consultation." http://www.vamalpractice.com/

Edited by Wings (see edit history)
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Josephine, I am not going to aplogize for being horrified at the thought of your being hypnotized or God forbid, drugged at a VA Hospital - without your consent!! You do not need to apologize to anyone for your claim or your feelings . . .

I would very much like for you to feel safe and respected during your VA medical treatment. I will remain distraught and affected over your reports until I hear of some resolution!! May God be with you.

Wings,

I spoke with the supervisor of the patient advocate today and he expects the psychiatrist to have their opinion prepared at any time.

He stated that he knew that the file would be coming back. He did all that he could do for me.

He said that they would not want the BVA pounding on them and would not allow this claim to remain on their desk.

I only wanted to post my story, as others, at some time, may face the same situation that I did.

I expect an answer within the few months and perhaps, this claim can lay to rest.

If the Va had secured my psychiatric records upon my first filing of 1978 or when I filed again in 2002, but they didn't.

I secured them for them in 2004 and then strange things began to happen.

I appreciate your sending me all the references and the telephone numbers.

I will paste them and print them and keep them in my lock box with all my other Va. papers.

Thanks for your prayers,

Josephine

Edited by Josephine (see edit history)
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