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Hospital stay has wreaked havoc

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Ok, so one doc diagnosed PTSD, and another disputed the earlier diagnosis.  Have you applied for benefits, and is he service connected for PTSD?  If you have not applied, I recommend you apply.  

Legally, if Doct "A" diagnoses PTSD, this should suffice.   In the event 2 docs disagree, the law requires the Veteran be given the benefit of the doubt.  However, the VA CAN choose one doctors opinion over another, but, if they deny benefits based on the more unfavorable doctor report, they have to give a reasons and bases as to why they found one doctors statement more probative than the other.     The legal term is "equipose", and this means if there is an equal amount of evidence for and against the claim, the Veteran must be given the benefits.  

However, the VA, in a denial can cite reasons why they favored one docs opinion over another.  For example, if one doctor did a more thorough exam, and read the Veterans records, while another doctor did not so state, then the VA may rely on the more unfavorable report.  

Even tho you need not meet a "preponderance of the evidence" standard to qualify for benefits, it may be in your best interest NOT to go to the unfavorable VA doc again, but instead, go to another doctor who may concur with the PTSD diagnosis.    In other words, if your hubby gets has another mental health breakdown, consider taking him to a different but nearby VAMC for treatment.   For example, if you lived in Spring field Ohio, instead of taking him to Dayton VAMC, you could consider Chilocothe VAMC for treatment.  Simply go to another VAMC next time.  THat way, you will likley have 2 favorable doc reports to refute the one unfavorable report.  It would be very hard for a denial to "stick" upon appeal, if you had 2 favorable doc reports and one unfavorable.

Most claims, including mine, have evidence both for and against the claim.  I personally had a very unfavorable medical exam by a VA doc.  However, surpisingly, this unfavorable exam was not that much, if any, a factor.  I got benefits in spite of this unfavorable exam, probably because I had 2 other highly favorable exams.  In short, dont "worry" about that unfavorable exam to much....just simply refute it with more favorable evidence if you can.  

Its also possible, to challenge an exam.  There are several ways to do just that.  In all cases, get a copy of your records, and see what the doc wrote.  His report may not be all that unfavorable after all!  Get your cfile.  

1.  File to have records amended:  

§ 1.579 Amendment of records.

(a) Any individual may request amendment of any Department of Veterans Affairs recordpertaining to him or her. Not later than 10 days (excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and legal public holidays) after the date or receipt of such request, the Department of Veterans Affairs will acknowledge in writing such receipt. The Department of Veterans Affairs will complete the review to amend or correct a record as soon as reasonably possible, normally within 30 days from the receipt of the request (excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and legal public holidays) unless unusual circumstances preclude completing action within that time. The Department of Veterans Affairs will promptly either:

(1) Correct any part thereof which the individual believes is not accurate, relevant, timely or complete; or

(2) Inform the individual of the Department of Veterans Affairs refusal to amend the record in accordance with his or her request, the reason for the refusal, the procedures by which the individual may request a review of that refusal by the Secretary or designee, and the name and address of such official.

(Authority: 5 U.S.C. 552a(d)(2))

(b) The administration or staff office having jurisdiction over the records involved will establish procedures for reviewing a request from an individual concerning the amendment of any record or information pertaining to the individual, for making a determination on the request, for an appeal within the Department of Veterans Affairs of an initial adverse Department of Veterans Affairs determination, and for whatever additional means may be necessary for each individual to be able to exercise fully, his or her right under 5 U.S.C. 552a.

(1) Headquarters officials designated as responsible for the amendment of records or information located in Central Office and under their jurisdiction include, but are not limited to: Secretary; Deputy Secretary, as well as other appropriate individualsresponsible for the conduct of business within the various Department of Veterans Affairs administrations and staff offices. These officials will determine and advise the requesterof the identifying information required to relate the request to the appropriate record, evaluate and grant or deny requests to amend, review initial adverse determinations upon request, and assist requesters desiring to amend or appeal initial adverse determinations or learn further of the provisions for judicial review.

(2) The following field officials are designated as responsible for the amendment of records or information located in facilities under their jurisdiction, as appropriate: The Director of each Center, Domiciliary, Medical Center, Outpatient Clinic, Regional Office, Supply Depot, and Regional Counsels. These officials will function in the same manner at field facilities as that specified in the preceding subparagraph for headquarters officials in Central Office.

(Authority: 5 U.S.C. 552a(f)(4))

(c) Any individual who disagrees with the Department of Veterans Affairs refusal to amend his or her record may request a review of such refusal. The Department of Veterans Affairs will complete such review not later than 30 days (excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and legal public holidays) from the date on which the individual request such review and make a final determination unless, for good cause shown, the Secretary extends such 30-day period. If, after review, the Secretary or designee also refuses to amend the record in accordance with the request the individual will be advised of the right to file with the Department of Veterans Affairs a concise statement setting forth the reasons for his or her disagreement with the Department of Veterans Affairs refusal and also advise of the provisions for judicial review of the reviewing official's determination. (5 U.S.C. 552a(g)(1)(A))

(d) In any disclosure, containing information about which the individual has filed a statement of disagreement, occurring after the filing of the statement under paragraph (c)of this section, the Department of Veterans Affairs will clearly note any part of the recordwhich is disputed and provide copies of the statement (and, if the Department of Veterans Affairs deems it appropriate, copies of a concise statement of the Department of Veterans Affairs reasons for not making the amendments requested) to persons or other agencies to whom the disputed record has been disclosed. (5 U.S.C. 552a(d)(4)) (38 U.S.C. 501)

If you dispute the diagnosis, or anything in the records, you can file to have records amendended, as above. 

2.  You can also challenge the competency of the examiner.   Find out the doctors name.  In his exam, did he document that he read your hubby's medical history?  That is important.  If he did not document that he read your hubby's history, and your original doctor did, then his statement should be more probabtive.  Also find out the doctor's CV.  Has he treated PTSD patients before? If he has not, his testimony as an "expert witness" is suspect.  You can not be an "expert" if this is your first rodeo.    

Edited by broncovet
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HowIwish...I truly understand your concerns about the family finances, and I felt like I was having De Javu when I read your first post ...I have lived through the same nightmare.. a spouse I loved, who was also erratic and violent.I had his weapons confiscated.

You said your husband's DD 214 holds the CIB- to me that means the VA should diagnose him with PTSD and also should compensate him properly for it....but I say should...because I see a landmine here...

For many years, as a member of a fire department, we also had affiliations with police and EMS service.

A friend of mine , a sheriff, was relieved of his duties for a terrible domestic violence incident.He was a non vet. But another friend of mine, who received SSDI for PTSD, received it for incidents involved in his post service years as a police officer. He had no stressor but did serve in Vietnam during the war.He had assumed the VA would award him SC for PTSD based on his SSDI award. It doesnt work that way.

I suggest strongly that your husband apply for SSDI benefits:

https://www.ssa.gov/disabilityssi/

This would help alleviate the financial stress you are under.....

I am assuming a few things.... there was no drug or alcohol problem when he was relieved of his duties?

Are you able to tell us why he was let go? 

I am going to make another assumption....and could be wrong...

Most police forces full under the EEOC ADA regulations.They cannot fire any veteran who obviously has MH issues ,unless they can prove he created a "hostile environment" and was felt to be a safety issue in the workplace. A large company here in NY tried that on my husband...but they failed big time and he won his EEOC ADA case against them.He had years of satisfactory performance appraisals  from this same company as well as from the VA and his past 2 employers.But that was a different situation than yours....

my point here is the landmine...I only use that term when I see something that could potentially caused the VA to deny a claim...

Your husband obviously experienced stressors and as a OEF vet with the CIB, there is no doubt that he could have full blown PTSD.

BUT, a police officer, in a post service job can also experience some horrific stuff that would give anyone PTSD too.

He needs to make sure on the claim that his stressors from OEF were exacerbated by anything in his post service occupation that also could have caused PTSD...otherwise I fear the VA might deny a PTSD claim and blame his condition solely on his post service work as a cop.

You said: "They did give him an MMPI-2 (the short version) while he was inpatient and the psychologist that gave it to him said it pointed to bipolar or paranoid schizophrenia. But his psychiatrist said she didn't agree with the results."  

He could try to obtain that report from the VAMC that gave it to him.

I dont know what the 'short version 'is. The VA gave my husband the Combat related MMPI...and significant other tests (after a battle).

They did not question at all his established PTSD, it was instead to separate his MH issue from a Stroke.

(otherwise they would have never raised him to 100% PTSD

if they could have blamed the increase in his PTSD symptoms on the NSC , then 1151 'as if SC' stroke. 1151 means they (VA)caused the stroke .)

Any veteran who has valid combat stressors, can certainly have a long post service occupation that would exacerbate their PTSD from combat.

I never heard of the word exacerbate until I was helping a vet at the local VAMC and I also knew his MH doctor  well. He had Bi polar, not PTSD.

The doctor, with extensive evidence I had pulled from the veteran's SMRs, after the vet's bi polar  claim had been denied for almost 10 years by then, was able to not only write a letter to VA that involved the very first manifestations of his bi polar inservice, with reference to his SMRS, but also prove that the veteran's post service occupation as a director of a large company -a position he lost within a year due to hospitalization for Bi Polar ,had exacerbated (made worse)the bi polar he had developed while in service.

He won his claim.

I hope others will chime in on this ...I thought Vet's  Choice meant he could seek a psychiatrist without waiting for VA to do that....can anyone here clarify the Choice program?

60 Days wait???? absurd

"And about his care, the VAMC is now telling him they don't have any psychiatrist that can see him, and he will need to use Veteran's Choice. He was told last week that it could take 60 days for them to find him a psychiatrist outside of the VA. They're refusing him counseling. Right now we start marriage counseling next week and he starts anger management next week as well." 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • HadIt.com Elder

Ms berta brings up a good point

VA may try to say his PTSD was cause from his Police Work before military or After military.

 they look for ways not to service connect, even delve back into childhood,  did he have mental problems as a child or was abused  the VA will look at all records

Even though he has a CIB  he will need to give his lay testimony about 2 Stressor's he had while in the military.

although VA concedes the stressor's when  veteran has the CIB but in this case him being a police officer they can say he has seen or been around other trauma that could cause his PTSD

jmo

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Thanks again for the responses! I value ya'lls input more than you can imagine. I TRUST you folks! 

I'll try to address everything. First, he doesn't qualify for SSDI. He hasn't paid into it in years because in Ohio, as a cop, you pay into OPERS. So his disability retirement will come from OPERS (a state pension fund) and not SSDI. 

He was given a fitness for duty exam by the police department upon his release from the hospital. That's standard, and he failed it. He's a sergeant and has never had any issues with causing a bad work environment, but as a police officer he has to be fit for duty, and due to his mental illness he isn't. I'm guessing that the medication he's on played a part in that also. It's a very high dose of anti-psychotic and can cause tremors, delayed response time, etc.To be honest I was relieved, even though it puts us in a very bad financial situation. I would rather be poor than a widow, and to be completely honest, that's what we were headed towards. It was BAD. I'm still coming to terms with how bad things had gotten, as is he. 

He even told me yesterday that he feels like even once he's stable and "cleared" by whomever he ends up seeing for his mental health to be allowed access to his guns again, he doesn't want access to his guns. He said that he fears a relapse, and he was way too close to killing himself before, and he wants to be around to raise his kids. He has major impulse control issues when he's at his worst, and we both fear what he could do without thinking. But honestly, I never thought he would permanently give up his guns. He was a machine-gunner and a cop and his guns have always been very important to him. He carried always, and hated flying on a plane, or anything that prevented him from carrying.

Anyway, he definitely had huge stressors in the war. He has no shortage of stressors! He was on the ground from 3/1/03- 1/16/04. There was no "green zone." Iraq was a hot mess and they were sleeping in fox holes that were only a few feet deep due to the solid rock under the sand, or abandoned "castles" of Saddam's family. There was no running water, no electricity, and they were on high alert 24/7. There weren't the IEDs that came later with the influx of terrorists, but there was plenty of combat, nighttime raids, and everything that goes along with the initial invasion. 

He doesn't have childhood "abuse" per say, but I do know that he has talked to the doctors and psychologists when he was inpatient about neglect during his childhood. Nobody abused him, but his dad was an alcoholic, though not the "typical" kind. He never went to bars and he never got violent or even yelled. He just came home from work and sat in his study and drank. He was just completely uninvolved in the family. And his mom would stay in bed a lot. So my husband was on his own a lot.

He hasn't had any big stressors at work, no shootings or anything. But the dead body calls and suicides really get to him. His job definitely exacerbates what he saw and did in Iraq.

And just to clarify, all of his mental health care outside of the Va has been fine. Maybe not the best care ever, but there was never any question about his diagnoses or putting him on medications. But as soon as he was admitted to the Va the doctor, within few hours, completely threw out all of his prior diagnoses and took him off his meds. I know the Va has to diagnose things on their own for benefits, but neither of us expected his inpatient stay to be so tumultuous. She was changing his diagnosis almost daily, and wrote in her chart that I was demanding that she diagnose him with Bipolar (his previous diagnosis.) That definitely never happened. I told her repeatedly that I didn't care what his diagnosis was as long as he was getting care and she wasn't diagnosing him with something that made NO sense but just happened to be noncompensable. 

The second nurse that pulled me aside told me point blank that she had been caring for my husband during his stay and that he should never be carrying a gun on the street as a cop, and that the doctor was going to say he was fine for work to save the Va in benefits. She told me that in her opinion he should be 100% disabled and that this doctor was going to see to it that he couldn't get that. She said she'd seen it time and again and it made her sick, but she was hopeful for my husband because we were questioning things. She told me to keep fighting because we were the first ones to fight this doctor.

Now, honestly, I thought she was being kind of dramatic and maybe full of hog wash at the time. Once he was released and we saw his medical records, everything she said made sense. Yes, it sounds crazy. Yes, I feel like we are being paranoid which is ironic given the fact that one of my husband's biggest issues is paranoia. But it's all there in black and white. 

She even said that my in-laws were paranoid IN THE CHART! Now tell me that's even professional? My father-in-law is a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the AF, and he's blown away by all of this. 

They were pretty involved during his stay as well, but not with the doctors or anything. They were just trying to help us navigate the system since we are completely new to all of this, and they visited my husband every few days. But they have seen the chart and listened to the phone calls. But they don't use the VA, and have no idea what we should do now except for reporting it all and sending everything to our congressmen.

So we're back to this: Should he just finish the application for the disability benefits now and fight the charting and ethics issues on the side, or should we attempt to fight this doctor first and maybe get the charting thrown out? Or at least prove she was lying? Because we CAN prove that. But I'm not sure how much her notes will affect a benefits decision. 

We are both the type to fight for what's right, period. Honestly, that's why I trust you so much, Berta. I've read a lot on this site, and you strike me as the same kind of person. You kept fighting and continue to do so even when financially it may not be necessary or even beneficial. 

Yes, we are going to be in a financial disaster. But doing the right thing is extremely important to us.

My husband should have put in for VA benefits years ago. All the other guys from his squad (and most of the ones he has kept in touch with from his platoon) have been getting benefits since they got out. But my husband was stubborn and said he wanted nothing to do with the VA. To be honest, most of them haven't had these big of issues, probably because they got help so much sooner. Also because they aren't getting triggered at work constantly. I saw this coming... His inability to maintain, and I have tried to convince him to get help for years. It just saddens me that when he finally gave in and sought help it has turned out like this. 

So, here is our tentative plan. Please tell me if it's wrong or if we should do something differently. If we should (or even can) fight this doctor's notes, should we do that first before filing for benefits?

Here's what we are thinking for now:

1) This coming week finish organizing his non-VA medical records. Obtain all SMRs and get his application for VA disability benefits done.

2) Then we will burn CD-ROM copies of all the recordings and his VA medical chart and send it (marked with all major discrepancies) to our congressmen along with letters from my husband explaining his ordeal. He's already been working on writing it all up. (We are very blessed that several of our congressmen are involved in VA reform and committees!)

3) File a complaint with the IG and send them copies of the phone recordings and his chart with the discrepancies marked. Also send them a letter from my husband.

4) File a complaint against the psychiatrist with the Ohio Medical Board along with the CD-ROM as above.

 

I genuinely want to know what you all would do. If her notes were simply opinions that were unfavorable, that's one thing. And honestly a lot of it is simply that. But again, there are entire conversations that I have recorded that she blatantly lied and didn't just misrepresent. She fabricated everything she wrote and it isn't even close to what was actually said. If she lied that much that is provable, hopefully it will bring the entire thing into question.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read all of this and give your advice!

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  • HadIt.com Elder

I understand what your hubby is going through  a lot of us here have PTSD .

I have chronic PTSD  and still have night mares about things that happen 46 47 years ago in Vietnam as it was yesterday , the fear of the things we witness in war never goes away   we can only try to make it better by medications and therapy counseling , VA  has different type treatments according to his symptoms .

I recommend you get your hubby to the VA for treatment ASAP if he is not in treatment at this time? 

He can apply his claim and use the ITF intent to file  and he will have a year to gather evidence go to private Dr, but he should be able to use the VA Mental Health as evidence for treatment and a PTSD Diagnoses.... treatment records are good evidence and usually MH Dr's will mention that your hubby still carries some guilt from Iraq  SMR's & MSR's the VA Can request those  as well as you guys  and his C-FILE.

Beings things have not went well with all of this  you may want to shoot  Bob McDonald an email and just copy /paste everything you mention here   But you may go back and re state some of the things   and just try to get to the point without to much for him or his staff to read....or try another VAMC.

keep your email short and to the point.

Employees at the VA are different and if the VAMC you guys went to are not helping matters   seek another VA

So with an ITF he has a year to file and it starts his EED (EARILY EFFECTIVE DATE) For his Claim when he files it.

I recommend that he goes to treatment ASAP & Worry about a claim later.   this is a life were talking about here and you mention you would rather be poor and married and not be a widow.

get your Hubby the treatment he needs.

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Buck, they want him to use the Choice card....and they want to pick the shrink.what choice is that?

"And about his care, the VAMC is now telling him they don't have any psychiatrist that can see him, and he will need to use Veteran's Choice. He was told last week that it could take 60 days for them to find him a psychiatrist outside of the VA. They're refusing him counseling. Right now we start marriage counseling next week and he starts anger management next week as well." 

There is a list of Ohio psychiatrists on line. some probably deal with PTSD... does anyone here have any idea if he can pick his own MH doctor?

HowIwish, yes I sure became a fighter when I saw what the VA was doing to my husband....and got him better PTSD care...but what I did not know is that in his 1151 claim, he had predicted his own death due to VA and they had already been malpracticing on him for 6 years by then.

But I got the bastards.I am still after them too on a different issue.

In your situation I would definitely concentrate on the claim, and collect all the records he will need., as a priority .

I just googled the Ohio Med Board before I read this.....and they have a specific criteria for complaints.

But they also probably have a State data base of disciplined doctors and this shrink might already have messed up with someone else.

You can google her name and also (I have done this many times) get a healthgrades.com rundown on her.

It might cost a few bucks but last time I used it for a vet's claim, they let me get 3 rundowns for the price of one.

My point is ,before you file anything with a congressman etc I suggest to try and get some cola -berating negative info on her. She might be one of those VA doctors who think all combat vets are liars but the C & P examiner is the one who can determine the proper diagnosis.

I know what it is like to deal with VA lies....in my case the lies came after my husband died and he could not speak for himself.They will all be in my book....every document lie I ever received from VA, the letters to and from my Congressman, Senators, and all of their emails to me.Unfortunately in NY we cannot tape calls unless we have the other person's permission....they held lies too.

BUT I focused mainly on the claims my husband had pending,and the wrongful death case I filed against them.

I also gave testimony to the H VAC during Shreddergate (it is still on line), wrote to FBI Director Combe, and recently I contacted the President Elect who promised a better VA. 

My point is there is a lot you can do and I know how it feels to be victimized by the system but I also know the VA is capable of superb PTSD care, and yet that care might come through the Choice program ,for your husband, and not the VA itself.

This might sound odd coming from me,after all I said above, but I have said it here before...some of the Best people I know work for the VA.At the local VAMC , the PTSD programs here in NY, and even at the General Counsel's office in DC.I was a VA volunteer in a PTSD combat group (1984)and also locally I did some volunteer work at the local VAMC. My husband worked for VA too. 

And If I can still say that ,knowing multiple doctors in two VAMCs caused my husband's death,it shows I do still have trust in the VA and better yet ,trust in myself to make their wrongs become  right.

And I have contacted Trump to let him know he will be hearing from me a lot....that will take me away from hadit ,but we have plenty of smart people here as  this is our only chance to really see the VA change and unlike Trump, we claimants know exactly how messed up the VA is.He knows of the waiting scandals but doesn't have a clue yet on how bad the VA really is...and even whoever he picks as Secretary might be a vet but might never have gone through the ludicrous claims process...or been fatally misdiagnosed by a VA doctor.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Berta
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