My letter to VA - refuting C&P before denial

[IMEF-Gunny]

I know that I'm just pissing in the wind here, but I attached this letter to ebennies after reading the C&P examiner's report. It won't do a damn bit of good, but, for what it's worth....made me feel better!

So, I was diagnosed for, being treated by local VAMC for PTSD. Currently take Zoloft, Prazosin & Bupropion.....Zoloft helps. Filed a PTSD claim, stressors verified, C&P exam was attended. C&P doc says I meet none of the criteria basically for PTSD based on his exam/testing and that I have major depressive disorder. His opinion is it is "less likely than not (Less than 50%)" related to service, as it was pre-existing and I was "relatively symptom free" for decades. What evidence he used for that statement remains to be a mystery. Anyway....here's the letter....thoughts?

 

RE: C&P Examiner’s Notes Dated 7/14/2017

I am writing in regard to the C&P examiner’s notes from 7/14/2017. In reviewing the notes from the exam, it is clear that much of the information/opinions entered seem to be skewed from facts/evidence presented to fit a certain diagnosis, misconstrued or some items left out entirely. The report seems to be formed around the idea that a "pre-existing" condition (based on two minor incidents as a young teenager) is the cause of Major Depressive Disorder, which in turn is the cause of my current issues, but that my time spent in a combat zone at the age of 19 has little or no bearing on my current mental health.

"38 C.F.R. § 4.125(b) Diagnosis of mental disorders. If the diagnosis of a mental disorder is changed, the rating agency shall determine whether the new diagnosis represents progression of the prior diagnosis, correction of an error in the prior diagnosis, or development of a new and separate condition. If it is not clear from the available records what the change of diagnosis represents, the rating agency shall return the report to the examiner for a determination."

I would start by pointing out that the doctors opinion is stated as the following:

b. The condition claimed was less likely than not (less than 50%

probability) incurred in or caused by the claimed in-service injury, event

or illness.

c. Rationale: The primary rationale for this opinion is the presence of

symptoms similar to his current symptoms prior to joining the military (see

Mental Health history, Substance Abuse history). As stated in a December 1,

1989 Mental Health note "referral for eval of EPTE SA in 1987 of putting

His head through a glass window while drunk. States he was in a state of

depression at the time." and goes on "Significant hx of feeling

dression with suicidal ideation both sober and intoxicated. Has stopped himself from

killing himself with gun but can not verbalize why he stopped."

Similarly, veteran's history is inconsistent with his service being the

Major precipitant of his current distress. While veteran identifies distress upon

his return and a June 1, 2017 buddy statement by his mother, indicates

distress after deployment (see partial statement below), his history

indicates he experiences marked distress before the deployment and was

relatively symptom free until 3 to 5 years ago. Such a history is

inconsistent with that expected of the deployment being the primary truama.

The two isolated incidents he references are as follows:

1.) At the age of 14 years old, I was invited by a friend of mine to go to St Francisville Illinois to visit two teenage girls who were babysitting. We went to see the girls and being teenage boys, we wanted to impress the girls. The people that owned the home had a party the night before. There was a box filled with alcohol and we bragged to the girls how we were experienced party guys. I poured a glass of rum, not having any experience with alcohol outside of the occasional Busch Light beer my friends and I would sneak on a weekend, as all the boys did, I gulped down approximately 20 ounces of the rum. I had no knowledge that hard alcohol affected a person differently than a beer would. I woke up on my bed, in my house. I had blacked out and had no memory after the rum. I was awaken by a very upset mother who smacked me, which she had never done in my 14 years. I smacked my head into my bedroom window. This would later be called "a suicide attempt" by hospital staff. It wasn’t at all. I was taken to the ER with a .27 BAC and later released. In an effort to avoid legal issues, I was made to attend mandatory drug and alcohol counceling, which is a requirement for alcohol related offenses such as minor consuming in Knox County.

2.) When I was approximately 16 years of age, I was riding to school with a group of friends. One of the boys had stolen a bottle of Wild Turkey from his dad’s liquor cabinet. We were all taking sips from the bottle. A teacher had driven by us on the way to school and saw me tilt the alcohol bottle. First period of class, I was taken to the office and given a breathalyzer. The test showed alcohol in my system, so I was suspended from school for 5 days. My mother grounded me for several weeks. I was kept from my friends, my girlfriend, etc. This is the incident I confessed to in the "truth room" at MEPS, where I considered suicide because I was so distraught from being grounded. I agreed to attend a couple of AA meetings with my step dad’s mother in an effort to avoid legal trouble. I quickly discovered that I had nothing in common with the people at these meetings.

I had no further issues after this incident.

So, it is this doctor’s opinion, and we are led to believe that two incidents, mentioned here in detail, that took place at the ages of 14 and 16 years of age, as a young teenager, in the company of peers experimenting with alcohol are "more likely than not" the cause of 26 years of mental health issues, but that 6 months in a combat theater being bombed by shrapnel, witnessing death, having a friend killed in theater, being surrounded by Arabs that are actively trying to kill you, sleeping an hour at a time per night and patrolling hostile areas is "less likely than not" the cause of my issues.

The doctor goes on to mention that I spent decades "relatively symptom free", although there is no evidence to support that statement, actually quite the contrary is true. The doctor also

fails to mention or consider that before and after these two incidents, up until the age of 20 years, I had no further incidents similar to those he quotes as signs of significant history of depression and/or alcohol abuse. I maintained healthy, happy friendships and family relations until 1991, post war, when all of that changed.

As further evidence, he cuts & pastes portions from my Mother’s statement to VA. If you compare the C&P to the original statement from my mother, dated June 1, 2017, you will notice that he neglected to include the beginning and the last part of the statement. He only presents the text that he feels supports his opinion. A trend that is repeated throughout the report.

Further into the document, he expresses the opinion that, based on the MMPI, that my emotional distress is relatively low; However, his findings in regard to social impairment, symptoms of major depressive disorder, violence, mood, suicidal ideation, memory and cognition contradict this opinion sharply. The MMPI also shows no indication of dishonesty, as it shouldn’t, I was honest.

Veteran's responses indicate significant thought dysfunction.

Significant persecutory ideation such as believing that others seek to harm him or

her. Is suspicious of and alienated from others. Experiences interpersonal difficulties as a result of suspiciousness. Lacks insight. Blames others for his or her difficulties.

He alludes to alcohol disorder and/or abuse as a contributor; although, pre-combat, I had only two isolated incidents experimenting with peers at the ages of 14 and 16 years. My post-war alcohol use was dramatically increased in the first few years after returning home. His notes appear to paint a picture of "significant history " of pre-service substance abuse based on pre-service use? He does not address the idea/possibility that alcohol was a "self medicating" tool after deployment.

In light of his previous alcohol history and possible denial (see

Substance Abuse history), the possibility of an additional Alcohol

Use disorder should be considered if more history of abuse becomes

salient.

He also states later in the report, the following statement in regard to impairment:

a. Which of the following best summarizes the Veteran's level of

occupational and social impairment with regards to all mental diagnoses? (Check only

one)

[X] Occupational and social impairment with occasional decrease in work

efficiency and intermittent periods of inability to perform

occupational tasks, although generally functioning satisfactorily,

with normal routine behavior, self-care and conversation

Which, even based on the information/opinion he provides, however skewed or misrepresented it may be, seems mild for a veteran with Major Depression, suicidal ideation, problems at every job, no friendships, family relationships, etc.

He goes on to mention that marital difficulties may account for present issues as well. He references my first marriage after deployment as I stated "I got married for the wrong reason". The doctor however does not seek out that that reason was because I was overcome with feelings of anxiety and fear from the Gulf War. I felt as though, I almost died many, many times and therefore needed to have a wife, have kids, buy a house, start a life. My marriage failed due to anger issues, interpersonal issues, anxiety and the fact that the girl I married was the first girl I dated post war. The girl was of low moral character, as I described to him.

He mentions in his notes the following, but represents it as normalcy, leaving out the fact that I avoid crowds because I do not trust people, especially Arabs. I avoid crowds because it raises my anxiety and makes me extremely nervous. Especially in light of all of the extremist attacks that take place today. He also references my carrying a gun, especially in Indy, but fails to expound on the fact that I carry that gun/ammo at different levels of readiness based on threat assessment. In Vincennes, I may carry only one spare magazine. In somewhere as dangerous as indy, I generally carry a minimum of 60-90 rounds.

Veteran sees himself as a home body who prefers to avoid crowds. He

does run family errands without incident, for example, he went to the

grocery store yesterday by himself, "one of my kids was sickly,

got prescriptions, went okay I guess." Similarly, he went out to

dinner last night, "it went all right;" however, this was first time

eatingout, "in a long time."

The VA doctor also states the following in regard to friendships/social relationships:

Initially, veteran denies having any friends; however, when pressed

For details he describes several on-going relationships. He has a

neighbor, "navy veteran, occasionally go over and talk." His

"best friend" in high school, "is married to my sister." He

has a friend that he served with who comes by his house regularly, the last time,

"3, 4 weeks ago." Veteran reports that he enjoys preparing meals for

his family on the grill but denies any other pleasurable activities in his life.

This statement skews fact to make it appear that I, in fact, do maintain "several" close relationships; However, it fails to acknowledge that the neighbor lives directly across from me,

he is a navy vet who has rather severe hearing loss from flight deck work. We speak occasionally when we are both out in the yard. We do not have any type of ongoing social interaction and conversations are generally about, weather, military service, etc and are brief.

He alludes to my "best friend" in high school who is married to my sister. He fails or neglects to mention that I have not spent time with that friend since 2007. Also, that my sister hasn’t spoke to me in atleast a year. I have no ongoing relationship with either.

Lastly, he mentions a friend that I served with that comes by my house regularly. That "friend" is a person I went to highschool with. He served with 2/7 in Desert Storm as a machine gunner. He has been to my house two times in the last 26 years, both of those in the past 3 months, both were to speak about disabilities and VA. He has leukemia, severe memory issues, PTSD and a chronic cough that he has been denied service connection for. I am trying to help him with his claim denials. So, this is definitely presented much differently than it really is.

The doctor also references the fact that I do not react to stressor discussion, but react more to conversation about anger, depression. I would point out that stressors were mentioned and/or asked about briefly one time. Most of the interview was guided toward how I’m affected socially/family, not why.

I was actively crying when discussing the following death of a friend in Desert Storm:

Prior to being mobilized, I had an older Harley Davidson motorcycle that had charging issues. The bike had to be push started. A friend of mine helped me start the bike for like 20 minutes of pushing together. That friend was Jeff Reel. Jeff was about 10 or so days from deploying to theater. He was a couple years older than I and was very anxious/ nervous about going to war. He said he "just wanted to make it home". I re-assured him that he would be okay, he’d make it and had a long life ahead of him. In 1991, sometime around my birthday, I received a letter from my grandmother, in it, she informed me that Jeff was killed in Saudi Arabia. He did not make it home.

The doctor, seemingly agitated, ask me "so, is it the letter you’re upset about or the scuds"? I answered both. That was the only conversation and/or mention of stressors by the VA doc throughout the entire 3 hour exam. Also, as you’ll note, there was no mention of Jeff’s death in his report.

Later in the exam, the doctor notes that I "seek out stimuli" related to combat theater, terrorism, military service. As evidence, he lists facebook and my trying to re-join the military. He neglects to mention that the reason I wanted to re-enlist was to contribute to the fight

against radical islam by killing as many Jihadis as humanly possible with 76th Infantry Division.I was told that being treated for PTSD, I cannot join. I did not say anything about being too old. I can still join based on age/ years of service.

I do not seek out stimuli on facebook. I have no friends. Facebook is my only interaction with peers. My therapist , Rhonda Bray at the VAMC, is of the opinion that the last 3 years have been markedly more difficult because of social media and the fact that terrorism reporting is always present, therefore raising my anxiety, anger much higher than in the past.

Also, I would point out that he questions Rhonda Bray’s diagnosis, but did not inquire as to how she arrived at a PTSD diagnosis, and also, the only notes from my sessions with behavioral health at the Vincennes VAMC he cut/pasted were the initial intake, where I was guarded in fear of losing my handgun licesnse and the only positive report that Rhonda wrote, directly after I started Zoloft and was experiencing a "euphoric" like start, which is obviously not representative of the last decade. Again, these seemed to be hand-picked to fit the narrative.

A March 3, 2017 Behavioral Medicine note reports remarkable progress,

"reports that he is doing much better. 'I wanted to call you

the other day and thank you, I really didn't think I could feel normal

again.'"

The note went on, "Vet is happy that he has been able to enjoy

life, hestated his wife has really noticed a difference. Vet stated he

hadn't cried in three weeks. Vet has had no suicidal ideations. Vet states

he feels his memory may be a little better." The note finishes,

"Vet stated he and his wife have been going out one night per week and he

has been enjoying that." Veteran confirms this initial success

which he attributes to Zoloft. He feels that his symptoms are still

improved but that the initial period of "almost euphoria" have left.

Veteran has been diagnosed with PTSD by his providers; however, the

basis of this diagnosis is unclear. Veteran's January 6, 2017

Initial Psychiatry Consult does not report apparent intrusive symptoms of

PTSD.

As described there, "HISTORY OF PRESENT ILLNESS: Vet reports he

Cries whenever he comes to the VA, Vet states he also cries sometimes at

Home for no reason. Vet reports problems sleeping, states he is up five

times per night. Vet does check locks every night, he contributes it

to having small children, not to being hypervigilant. Vet reports road

rage. Vet states he doesn't feel depressed, Vet denies suicidal

or homicidal ideations. Vet does not wish to take any medications. Vet

states he will think about buying Melatonin over the counter to try

for sleep. Vet is agreeable to discussing with his wife and made f/u

appointment with this writer for one month. Vet provided with

information for the Vet Center. Vet reports poor short term memory,

Vet states that he makes lists on his phone, Vet is worried that he will

not be able to 'remember anything when I am 50.'"

.

I would also mention that he rates Panic as "None". I described having episodes of panic regularly when he asked me, and especially when I am at work and we have to donn SCBA’s, similar to a gas mask in MOP4. He asked me what the panic was like and I described to him my heart pounding/racing and I sweat, especially my palms. He neglected to put that in his report and instead listed it as none.

In closing, I cannot believe that any rational human being could weigh the evidence, view this C&P report and conclude that two minor incidents as a young teen experimenting with alcohol as teens do is far more likely to have caused a lifetime of mental health, social issues barring the fact that the evidence contradicts that in every way, but believes that 6 months in a combat theater is far less likely to have caused or , at a minimum aggravated any possible pre-existing condition. I feel that this C&P is, not at all, a valid depiction of my last 26 years and hope that whoever is reading it for rating purposes can clearly discern that.

Sincerely,

[IMEF-Gunny]

Here's a letter and one of the pages from the article

 

 

 

ChrisNews.tif

 

 

ChrisLetter.tif

Edited August 1, 2017 by IMEF-Gunny

[Berta]

Gunny-

The letter and article are Good! The VA will have to give the statements in the buddy letter weight….thanks for posting this. It was well written and put you at the scene regarding the SCUD and the buddy gave contact info and detailed this as best as he could. It is an eye witness account of a vet who was at same time, same place aqs you were4 witnessing the Scud attack..

I am glad you posted this info for us-----

You might need to explain to VA (If they deny---and that is not yet on paper- these are good pieces of evidence)

what “G” Co , 3/24/ 4^th Marines means.The VA rater who handles your claim,. might not even know what IMEF stands for.

http://wikivisually.com/wiki/3rd_Battalion_24th_Marines 

THANKS. This is great and I feel better as to your chances to succeed , under the 2010 PTSD regulations.

Maybe they will accept the other PTSD diagnosis based on the buddy statement .

For those who download the buddy statement, if you have Win10 you can rotate it to appear vertical in the TIF reader.

It is a very good example of what a Buddy Statement should contain.

You aren't pissing in the wind, it is just that the C & P doctor did not seem to focus on the scud, or any stressor and this is what PTSD C & P exams need a focus on.

If a vet (and this can happen to any vet) starts to get hung up on other aspects of their life or problems, during the exam, they are not revealing to the examiner just how much stress they have from inservice stressful events. 

At C & Ps some vets can hardly even talk about their stressors and some give every detail they can, as it never leaves them. 

The VA MUST give this Buddy statement weight. It is probative evidence.

This isn't over yet.

 

[Berta]

Also I am glad you wrote that letter to them about the C & P exam.

At one of my husband's PTSD exams some Vietnam vet in the waiting area started to work him up about the war.

I think the vet was full of shit about his 3 tours in Vietnam.Vietnam vets dont brag to strangers or other vets in a waiting room of how many Vietnamese they killed.

My husband would hardly say a word to the examiner. Meantime I heard them looking around for his VA med files. The exam was done at a different VAMC than he ever went to before, because he was a VA employee. 

The exam results were not good.I called up the C & P doc (in those days you could do that) and asked him how he concluded the vet had minimal problems with PTSD when I heard some nurses looking all over for his VA med recs ,psyhology records etc etc and the local VAMC had failed to send those records to him. He still kept his 30% SC for PTSD at the time.He might have gotten another C & P as well but I forget around that time. This was about a year before his 100% SC EED for PTSD was granted. That is the EED (1991)- as his claim was still pending for a higher rating when he died.1994. The award came to me -his surviving wife in 1997as an accrued benefit.

I apologize if I seemed negative about your chances. Thanks again for posting the buddy letter.

Others will chime in on that too..

 

 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Berta

[IMEF-Gunny]

No problem, there are a lot of other factors/items/incidents involved and I hesitate to post everything online.

If anyone learns anything from my mistakes, learn that the C&P is your one shot to help someone understand how you have been affected.....I should have been re-directing the questioning or tying it to the "why" I have spent the last two decades struggling with relationships, work, violence, etc......I didn't, I simply let the doc lead the questions and I answered them....I was anxious/nervous.

I do not compare myself to a Vietnam veteran in any way, shape or form. I have told my therapist that. I have the utmost respect for all of my brothers who have served, especially those who continue to pay the price for freedom.

I have minimized my issues for years and denied that I was the problem, because I don't see that....don't understand why people are afraid of me or find me blunt and intense......but I am in no way a hero by any stretch, I just have something wrong.....whether that's PTSD, MDD, or whatever label it might carry, I don't know.....but it took me 26 years to admit and ask for help and irregardless of the outcome on this side of the coin, I'm happier, as is my family that I'm working toward sorting it out.

Thank you all for your input and patience with me.

By the way Berta, I would whole heartedly agree with what the C&P doc said in refernce to the war not being consistent with my issues, IF, I had spent 20 years between 1991 and 2017 "relatively" symptom free, but none of the evidence from my life, documents, work history, etc points to that....that was an opinion of the doctor ie; (speculation), without grounds in available fact......that is why I took such great oposition to that statement from him......not to mention, what does "Relatively" mean exactly in regard to mental illness or struggles from mental illness?

 

Thanks again!

Edited August 1, 2017 by IMEF-Gunny

[Berta]

Good points Gunny and this all will help anyone out there reading as a guest contemplating a PTSD claim.

I saw a BVA remand one whereby the veteran's examiner said he did not  claim any stressors for 30 years after they occurred. I knew the BVA would remand that claim for another C & P exam because there is no time limit as to when stressors and PTSD can raise their ugly head. That is what the PT in PTSD is for (Post trauma). and it is common for anyone with PTSD to minimize their problems. 

My husband thought he had gone crazy after the war and tried to act like a normal person until he had an incident at the VA in NJ. He thought he would be arrested by the VA police.Instead a psychologist sat with him , but only told him that he too was a Vietnam vet.and my husband  relayed that he had tried to choke the loan officer because he thought he was the enemy (the loan officer was an Oriental). My husband also detailed a flashback he had when the Loan officer tried to talk to him...... a "volunteer" job he had in Vietnam and he could still smell it.That is when the other Nam vet told him 'I am also the chief of psychology here at Newark VA, and you have PTSD. I will write a buddy statement right away so we can file your claim.'

The psychologist was also serving incountry  at the scene in Vietnam at Danang (1965)treating some of the Marines who had an immediate highly stressful reaction to what they had to do and that is why he could write the buddy statement....My husband didnt even know what PTSD was (1983) . 

But the Military holds MANY stressors- it does not matter if a vet was in combat or not---that does not determine their right to VA comp.

A few guests are reading this as I post it----I think your whole thread will help many facing a PTSD C & P !

 

I am glad you wrote that letter!

Edited August 1, 2017 by Berta

[pwrslm]

The letter probably will not have an impact. I did something similar and the RO pretty much ignored it. 

This is what you have going for you. Given that there were incidents in the record that you have had possible MH issues prior to enlistment, they will try to attribute everything toward that end. This is something that you have one up on, because now they MUST prove that the in service trauma did not aggravate or compound the earlier issue. This will literally be impossible for them to do.

First, they must have a valid diagnosis by a qualified specialist that an ongoing, preexisting condition existed. With the prior history indicated, I will assume that this information was included in your entrance examination. The guess work by the C&P examiner is not sufficient to do that. Without a certified professional stating that there was an ongoing MH issue prior to your enlistment, they dont have a basis to endorse this. Then, you were accepted for enlistment which shows there was not sufficient evidence of any MH problem that would prevent enlistment. You have to know that a suicidal addict or alcoholic would not be allowed to enlist!!

If they do certify that a preexisting condition existed, they must show that the event during active duty service did not affect or aggravate the preexisting condition (if they can prove that one existed). This is a high standard of proof.  From what I see, they should have no basis to establish what level the preexisting condition was before you joined from what you wrote. Certainly it was not sufficient to prevent enlistment. The level of proof here is a very high standard.

 

They also are required to show what percentage of the current disability is due to the additional stressor you experienced in active duty, but with MH symptoms, its not possible to separate out or figure what percentage can be attributed to each cause, so they must treat it all as SC if you meet all other requirements (Existing condition, event in ACTIVE Duty that caused it, and a nexus between the two). Hope this all helps some.

Edited August 2, 2017 by pwrslm