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TDIU Income questions


LanceJoseph

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Hello All, 

Let me start by saying that I was recently granted TDIU, I'm a young guy in my early 30's and I am currently in Voc Rehab and finishing out a bachelors program.  Working with my green team care providers I've been told that I am not yet ready to try for full employment. The issue I'm having is that while I work on myself mentally I would like to pursue a masters program to make myself more competitive and a more well-rounded applicant when the time comes that I can return to the workforce.  There are two issues I'm running into regarding my TDIU status. 

1. The program I am interested in requires 800 minimum PAID patient care hours to even apply for the program. So I would have to lose my TDIU to even try? I was told to contact my RO to possibly facilitate a sheltered part-time work program, or at the very least let my situation be known.  Any advice on this matter would be greatly appreciated.  

2. I recently inherited two properties from a family member and they are rentals, After speaking to a gentleman on VA's 1800 number I was told that rentals are counted towards gainful employment whether or not they are managed by me or not, ( I do not manage them, there were tenants already living there upon my possession of the properties).  They don't bring in much in the way of profit so are they worth keeping if they jeopardize my TDIU. 

Overall I am very blessed to receive my IU rating but I still want to get better and push myself to do more and be more than I currently am, The rating itself has allowed me to spend more time working on continuing my education but more importantly overcoming some issues that have plagued me for many years. Any advice or guidance or even constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated , Thank you and have a wonderful day 

Semper Fi

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If your providers say you are not ready for employment I would listen to them.  I would hate to see you lose TDIU and then find out you are not employable.   As for the masters program I would pursue another that does not have prerequisites.  It might not be the one you want but it sounds like the one you want is not attainable at this time.  I will say that I believe you are lucky you can attain a degree and have a chance at employment.  A lot of us have to realize we will never be able to earn an income again.  

As for the properties, if they hold no sentimental value I would dump them but then this would be considered income when you sold them so check with the VA about this.  Call Peggy and ask if there is someone who can advise you.  Someone else on this site may be able to advise you or we should wait to see if @asknodis willing to weigh in on this question.  It is complicated. 

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1 hour ago, LanceJoseph said:

Hello All, 

Let me start by saying that I was recently granted TDIU, I'm a young guy in my early 30's and I am currently in Voc Rehab and finishing out a bachelors program.  Working with my green team care providers I've been told that I am not yet ready to try for full employment. The issue I'm having is that while I work on myself mentally I would like to pursue a masters program to make myself more competitive and a more well-rounded applicant when the time comes that I can return to the workforce.  There are two issues I'm running into regarding my TDIU status. 

1. The program I am interested in requires 800 minimum PAID patient care hours to even apply for the program. So I would have to lose my TDIU to even try? I was told to contact my RO to possibly facilitate a sheltered part-time work program, or at the very least let my situation be known.  Any advice on this matter would be greatly appreciated.  

2. I recently inherited two properties from a family member and they are rentals, After speaking to a gentleman on VA's 1800 number I was told that rentals are counted towards gainful employment whether or not they are managed by me or not, ( I do not manage them, there were tenants already living there upon my possession of the properties).  They don't bring in much in the way of profit so are they worth keeping if they jeopardize my TDIU. 

Overall I am very blessed to receive my IU rating but I still want to get better and push myself to do more and be more than I currently am, The rating itself has allowed me to spend more time working on continuing my education but more importantly overcoming some issues that have plagued me for many years. Any advice or guidance or even constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated , Thank you and have a wonderful day 

Semper Fi

Kudos for bettering yourself.  However, It’s a fact.  When you complete VOC Rehab?  They VA will deem you employable.  You WILL lose your TDIU.  I think you could argue the rental property issue, but that’s out of my lane.  

Edited by MPsgt (see edit history)
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24 minutes ago, MPsgt said:

Kudos for bettering yourself.  However, It’s a fact.  When you complete VOC Rehab?  They VA will deem you employable.  You WILL lose your TDIU.  I think you could argue the rental property issue, but that’s out of my lane.  

Thanks for your input,  My Voc rehab case manager is in contact with my care providers and agrees with their assessment. I'm in the program for training purposes and he isn't pushing the employment resources until I get the green light from my care providers. 

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This is an interesting topic for me cause I was just awarded TDIU.

The way I always understood it from other posters is that rental income is unearned income/investment income therefore you didn't actually work to obtain that and would not count when the VA cross checks with Social Security just as long as it's reported on your tax filing as investment income and not earned income.

I sold a baseball card earlier this year and i have a few baseball cards from my collection that i'm currently selling so I hope i'm right on this. I just don't think you should be forced to save money by leaving your extra funds in a checking/savings account or stashing it underneath your mattress. Inflation would just eat it away. Doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe somebody else can chime in?

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I always cringe when someone says, "I was told....."

Told by who?  A few weeks ago, on tv, "I was told" the earth was flat.   I think the guy who said the earth was flat sincerely beleived that NASA's phots, proving otherwise, were all fakes. 

    Even if you "were told" by someone like a VSO, or a VSO, or a VA employee, when I get done with this Im gonna calculate all the money I have lost by doing "what I was told", by VA employees, VSO's and others who either had no idea what they were talking about, or were just plain lying.   

    You are not in the military anymore.  Look up the criteria for TDIU.  It says you are "unable to maintain Substantial Gainful employment" due to SC conditions.  

     Once a year, you need to send to the VA a form which describes your "earned income".  

     The late Senator Mc Cain, and others have gotten 100 percent and a few have overcome their disabilities and are able to earn an income.  

      Now, when you are on tdiu, simply fill out the form to say how much you earned.  Go look up the defination of substantial gainful employment, and/or earned income vs passive or investment income.  Disabled people are not required to be in poverty, even tho that is often how it works out.  Its not a crime to have saved up your money, and invested it wisely, or, in your case, for your parents to have done same.  

     Do what you want to do, and take advice from whoever you please.  Its your life.  And there is much information out there.  Some of it is correct, some not so much.  

      Ask your accountant what is the defination of earned income vs investment income.  

      If you do that, I think you will conclude you can own rental property as long as you are not actively managing it.  

      Getting a degree in a medical field is great.  I suggest you do whatever it is you can, and dont use the criteria for tdiu to rule over you.  If you can work, after a year of SGE, report it on the form.  Eventually, if you are able to enter the workforce, then do so, and dont fret over so called "lost income" from tdiu.  

Edited by broncovet (see edit history)
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I agree with broncovet   and if you do not report any income  the VA checks with the SSA/IRS to see if you did work OR FAIL TO REPORT ANY OTHER INCOME   if they find out they may decide to send you a Proposal to reduce your benefits.

Edited by Buck52 (see edit history)
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That form # is the 21 -4140 Employment Questioner.

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1 hour ago, Buck52 said:

That form # is the 21 -4140 Employment Questioner.

I read some articles saying they don't send those out anymore. My VSO also said the same. I guess we can still send it in though if we want right?

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A lot of times they dont send the forms, especially if you are over 65.  

Still, even if they dont send you a form and you have significant earned income that year, you better report it.  

The IRS and Va cooperate, so if you filed taxes on 800,000 last year, you better report that to VA regardles.. 

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Well I think this is on the debatable table...if you don't work or report and income while  your IU with the VA  I doubt they would come after you if you failed to send it in.

.I have heard from the best attorney's and Claims Agents that  you don't need to send  it in .....> only if you have worked during the prior year  then this form is basically used to report that income.

I been on TDIU P&T  for the last 17 years and older than 65..and not worked  in the last 22 years  because I am unable to work....>  the reason I have the IU  due to my military S.C. injury's.

but I still send in this form..simply because my award letter mention that if I fail to send it in  I can be sent to C&P Exam for re evaluation...but now that I am over 65 I doubt that they would  but I never underestimate the VA

And now for me with some more disease I filed on I am 100% scheduler rating they call it a final 100%degree rating   with 2 SMC.s

So the IU is moot..but VA Never said it was.

But I still send in the letter because of my original S.C. combined  disability is 90%IU  & my other  S.C. Disability's' are S.C. at 90%  

hence the SMC's

so I guess its the Veterans option...

When I do send it in I send it in on my Award Anniversary Date,  I send it direct to my R.O. with return mail receipt ...Someone at the R.O. Signs it to show they recieved it  and I do not ever hear back from them telling me its not necessary to send this form in.

So I Keep sending it in every years on my Award Date.

Until I reach the 20 year protection or I get a letter from my R.O. Telling me its no longer necessary.

you younger veterans under 55 I recommend you send it in each year until your told differently by the VA.

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Thanks for all the input, As for the form 4140, they have officially phased that form out and only use what the IRS reports to them.  I have received 3 notices confirming this, so it is not hearsay.  One thing I have found in my research of this subject was 38 U.S. Code § 1163, Trial work periods and vocational rehabilitation for certain veterans with total disability ratings, This implies that a veteran can go back to work on a trial basis and if he/she is not able to hold that position for a consecutive 12 months then the veteran may maintain his TDIU status, This is somewhat confrontational with the idea of "gainful employment" as that has to do with the poverty level and amount of income.  Which if a job pays 30 dollars an hour(hypothetically) you are well over the poverty level not even half-way through the year. 

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LanceJoseph

if you don't mind  can you post a redacted copy of those notices from the VA,  highlite the parts where they say 

''the form 4140, they have officially phased that form out and only use what the IRS reports to them.

 black out your personal information  name claim # ect,,,ect,,

Thanks

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I misspoke on my previous post, They didn't completely phase out the 4140 but as seen above the 4140 will ONLY be sent to those who go over the poverty threshold reported by the SSA.  

Edited by LanceJoseph (see edit history)
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Lance you are correct my friend  and I understand what you mean here. this was explain to me from a Well known VA Accredited Claims Agent. as you explain it  and also in those notices you recieved from the VA.

I think they only send out those notices to recent IU recipients.

us old Vietnam dogs   well most of us that's been on IU over ten years or more  most of us still send it in  maybe from habit...I know I still do. 

(jmo)

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Thanks guys, good info. Looks like I'll be getting one of those forms next year. Hopefully I don't get screwed because I sold a baseball card because I needed the money while waiting for TDIU to get approved. Maybe i'm just nervous because i'm new to this thing.

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10 hours ago, broncovet said:

I always cringe when someone says, "I was told....."

T

     The late Senator Mc Cain, and others have gotten 100 percent and a few have overcome their disabilities and are able to earn an income.  

     

Sorry to say but McCain is a poor example since he was rated 100% not TDIU.     I am rated 100% for my lungs, based on this alone  I could work again if I wanted too... but In my case I was awarded TDIu for a back condition prior to receiving my 100% rating, it was the TDIU award that kept me from working ( I was forced in early civil service retirement).... So again anyone with a 100% rating can work, any one with TDIU generally cannot work.

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<<<<<< any one with TDIU generally cannot work.>>>>> Remember, there is always a work around. I just got one of my clients IU even though he has his own accounting business. It's classified as "sheltered employment". For every VA regulation, there is a repair order-well, almost. You will need a good legal representative to succeed, though. It's very important to realize each Veteran's circumstances are unique. There is almost never a "one size fits all" rule. Witness the extraschedular scheme of TDIU if nothing else.

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