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Rounding?


Ronc531

Question

can someone tell me how the VA rounds percentages? if i have a 61% which way does it go? my wife said she read that they always round up, is that correct?

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Ronc531 The VA does funny math.  So with you case you would need to be at 64.45 to round up to 65.  Anything under this will keep you at the 60%.  Use the VA calculator on this site and it does an awesome job of calculating everything correctly.  

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It's not funny. Over halfway to a number it goes up. Less than halfway to a number it goes down. Pretty standard rounding.

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The VA has "rounded down" its calculations for compensation pay rates for decades.  

Example:

    Lets say you have a 100 percent disability, and for simplicity, its paid at 1000 per month.  You get a 3.8 percent pay raise.  Thats a 38 dollar raise, exactly 3.8 percent.  

But, lets say you are 10 percent disability  and get 100 per month, again, for simplicity.  100 times 3.8 percent, ROUNDED DOWN TO THE NEAREST DOLLAR is a $3.00 raise, or just 3 percent.  So, 100 percent gets 3.8 percent raise, but 10 percent gets just 3% because the numbers always rounded down to the lower whole dollar.  

     By repeating this over decades, you have an unfairness built in to all those who are less than 100 percent.  

      Here is how the chart really is, vs how it should be if everyone got the same raise:

100 percent (single Vet)     3057                      should be 3057

90    Percent (single vet)   1832 per month     should be 2751.30

  (3057 times 90 percent is equal to $2751.30).  So 90 percent Vets are hornswaggled out of the difference (2751.30 minus 1832) or 919 per month.  That is almost 1000 per month that all 90 percent Vets have been hornswaggled out of by "rounding down to the whole dollar" compounded for decades.  

Yea, Im a math nerd.  

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1 hour ago, brokensoldier244th said:

It's not funny. Over halfway to a number it goes up. Less than halfway to a number it goes down. Pretty standard rounding.

No the way they subtract percentages to get to the final percentage.  The rounding is dead on. 

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On 5/9/2019 at 6:40 AM, broncovet said:

Here is how the chart really is, vs how it should be if everyone got the same raise:

100 percent (single Vet)     3057                      should be 3057

90    Percent (single vet)   1832 per month     should be 2751.30

@broncovet

You are misconstruing how and what the numbers refer to and what they are based on.

yes 90% of $3057 is $2751.30, but 90% on the rating table is NOT about a 90% rating (or any rating) having a direct, 1 to 1, correlation to the maximum dollar amount of a 100% rating.

Using your thinking of how

On 5/9/2019 at 6:40 AM, broncovet said:

 all 90 percent Vets have been hornswaggled out of by "rounding down to the whole dollar" compounded for decades.

then a rating of 10% for a single veteran would equate to $ 305.71 per month.

The same misapplication would change ALL monthly payment amounts except 0 and 100 percent ratings.

As a third part, the annual raise does NOT change the % Rated, just the Dollar amount allowed by Law due to the COLA. We all get the same percent of our statutory allowed amount when a COLA is received, minus the statutory rounding down based on fractional pennies below the half cent. They round up at the half cent or higher calculation.

Facts and Application:

Congress has created 3 distinct things, one is the statutory outcome of the other. The third, COLA, only affects the outcome of the 2 thing.

The first is the rating table that describes the loss of work income based on an average person who has not suffered the same loss as the veteran due to SC created harm. This loss is expressed as a percentage of the expected  average income of an average person who is not harmed by military service.

The second item is a statutory dollar amount that each percentage is worth due to the harm caused to the veteran.

That does not, and cannot track as you expressed it.

We can agree that a 90% SC rated veteran deserves a higher dollar amount; what we cannot do is misapply the relationship between the first two items established by Congress and claim vets are being hornswaggled based on that misapplication.

Further we cannot imply that a COLA has anything to do with the actual Rating Table. It only applies to the assigned dollar amount that Congress has authorized and it rounds up or down in accordance with standard U.S. GAAP practices.

Put another way, to figure out the monthly monetary compensation due an SC veteran, identify the percent of rating in Table 1, then use that percent value with Table 2 to locate the statutory dollar value allowed by Law. Apply any COLA to the statutory value derived in Table 2. Round pennies in accordance with GAAP.

 

Edited by GeekySquid (see edit history)
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On 5/9/2019 at 1:21 AM, Ronc531 said:

can someone tell me how the VA rounds percentages? if i have a 61% which way does it go? my wife said she read that they always round up, is that correct?

 Ronc531

It goes to a 60% rating  any ratings higher than 65% goes to the 70% rating so if your 61% they should round it off to the nearest ratable # which is 60% and anything rated 65.1 will go to the 70%

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I would suggest any veteran that has a 90% rating file for IU if your s.c. disability keeps you from working  I mean a 90% veteran in my opinion is just as bad as a 100% veteran   so IU is the way to get paid at the 100% rating if you can't work.

if not then your going to need an additional 50% rating with your 90% rating to get 100%scheduler according to VA Math.

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4 minutes ago, Buck52 said:

It goes to a 60% rating  any ratings higher than 65% goes to the 70% rating so if your 61% they should round it off to the nearest ratable # which is 60% and anything rated 65.1 will go to the 70%

@Ronc531 and @Buck52

This is from the VA itself

Examples of Combining Two Disabilities

If a Veteran has a 50 percent disability and a 30 percent disability, the combined value will be found to be 65 percent, but the 65 percent must be converted to 70 percent to represent the final degree of disability.

Similarly, with a disability of 40 percent, and another disability of 20 percent, the combined value is found to be 52 percent, but the 52 percent must be converted to the nearest degree divisible by 10, which is 50 percent.
Example of Combining Three Disabilities

If there are three disabilities ratable at 60 percent, 40 percent, and 20 percent, respectively, the combined value for the first two will be found opposite 60 and under 40 and is 76 percent. This 76 will be found in the left column, then the 20 rating in the top row. The intersection of these two ratings is 81. Thus, the final rating will be rounded to 80%.

https://www.benefits.va.gov/compensation/rates-index.asp#howcalc

Typically in all economic calculations an amount or fraction that ends in a 5 is rounded up. An amount or fraction the is less than 5 rounds down.

so 3.4445695 rounds up to 3.444570 if you are using that many decimal places.

3.453 rounds down to 3.45 if using that many decimal places.

This applies to money and percentages in typical economic calculations and under U.S. GAAP accounting rules. A variation from that needs to be specifically stated in the supporting documents.

The above example states "must be converted to the nearest degree divisible by 10," which is the standard principal in economic calculations.

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8 minutes ago, Buck52 said:

I would suggest any veteran that has a 90% rating file for IU if your s.c. disability keeps you from working  I mean a 90% veteran in my opinion is just as bad as a 100% veteran   so IU is the way to get paid at the 100% rating if you can't work.

if not then your going to need an additional 50% rating with your 90% rating to get 100%scheduler according to VA Math.

@buck52

The system won't let me like your for some reason...oh well I agree with you.

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Thats ok Geeky  Roger that.

here sis the IU Regs for veterans under 100% at least 60%  to qualifiy for IU if your disability is under 100% and you can't work due to your 60&70% 80%90%  S.C. Disability  and special circumstances 40%

§4.16   Total disability ratings for compensation based on unemployability of the individual.

(a) Total disability ratings for compensation may be assigned, where the schedular rating is less than total, when the disabled person is, in the judgment of the rating agency, unable to secure or follow a substantially gainful occupation as a result of service-connected disabilities: Provided That, if there is only one such disability, this disability shall be ratable at 60 percent or more, and that, if there are two or more disabilities, there shall be at least one disability ratable at 40 percent or more, and sufficient additional disability to bring the combined rating to 70 percent or more. For the above purpose of one 60 percent disability, or one 40 percent disability in combination, the following will be considered as one disability: (1) Disabilities of one or both upper extremities, or of one or both lower extremities, including the bilateral factor, if applicable, (2) disabilities resulting from common etiology or a single accident, (3) disabilities affecting a single body system, e.g. orthopedic, digestive, respiratory, cardiovascular-renal, neuropsychiatric, (4) multiple injuries incurred in action, or (5) multiple disabilities incurred as a prisoner of war. It is provided further that the existence or degree of nonservice-connected disabilities or previous unemployability status will be disregarded where the percentages referred to in this paragraph for the service-connected disability or disabilities are met and in the judgment of the rating agency such service-connected disabilities render the veteran unemployable. Marginal employment shall not be considered substantially gainful employment. For purposes of this section, marginal employment generally shall be deemed to exist when a veteran's earned annual income does not exceed the amount established by the U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census, as the poverty threshold for one person. Marginal employment may also be held to exist, on a facts found basis (includes but is not limited to employment in a protected environment such as a family business or sheltered workshop), when earned annual income exceeds the poverty threshold. Consideration shall be given in all claims to the nature of the employment and the reason for termination.

(Authority: 38 U.S.C. 501)

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Also keep in mind that you can be rated 90% for VA  purposes but in reality it is between 86% - 94% to have 90%. In my case I am rated at 90% but I actually have 86% which rounds up to the 90%.my case I have 87% which rounds to 90%. I was just awarded another 50% disability, you would think I would be at 100%, but with VA I am not, I am still rated at 90%.  Is the way it works is 50% of the remaining 14% comes out to 7%, when you add the 86% to the 7% It comes out to 93% which rounds down to 90%. As everyone can tell you on this site, VA math stinks but we must live with it.

All I can say is hang in there for you can make it.

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 @Buck52 I will retire at the end of this year, I have been on medical accommodations for 1 1/2 years   I am unable to drive, sit, or stand for any length of time. I work for the federal government as a management & program analyst (I have a desk job) so they are more flexible with accommodations than the private sector. I also currently telework and do not go into the office (I work in DC which is 3 1/2 drive from where I live). TO make a long story short, would I be able to file for IU after I retire because of the physical limitations I have? I don't think I will have the skills to work somewhere else plus having the physical limitations I have. I have to continually stand, sit, or lie down because of the issues I have with the pain and nerve issues. And does it matter if I am at 100% P&T (I am hoping to get there soon).

Thanks for the info Buck as always.

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46 minutes ago, paulstrgn said:

TO make a long story short, would I be able to file for IU after I retire because of the physical limitations I have? I don't think I will have the skills to work somewhere else plus having the physical limitations I have.

@paulstrgn

consider reading particularly the last line.


https://www.knowva.ebenefits.va.gov/system/templates/selfservice/va_ssnew/help/customer/locale/en-US/portal/554400000001018/content/554400000014564/M21-1,-Part-IV,-Subpart-ii,-Chapter-2,-Section-F---Compensation-Based-on-Individual-Unemployability-(IU)#2

 

IV.ii.2.F.4.c. Determining the Effect of SC Disabilities on Employability
       
Determine whether the severity of the SC disabilities precludes the Veteran from securing or following substantially gainful employment.
 
The following factors have no bearing on a determination of whether SC disability renders a Veteran unemployable:

    age
    NSC disabilities
    injuries occurring after military service
    availability of work, or
    voluntary withdrawal from the labor market.

 

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1 hour ago, paulstrgn said:

And does it matter if I am at 100% P&T (I am hoping to get there soon).

@paulstrgn

The answer is maybe but not likely. It all depends on the sequence of events, what rated conditions you have and what rated condition becomes 100% schedular after being TDIU first.

Not the symptoms or effects of the condition, its the condition and all its secondaries that got you to TDIU.

Consider the issue with SMC (s) where the other 60% rating cannot be a secondary to the 100% rating to reach statutory SMC (s).

In the event, conditions that are separate and apart and unrelated to the TDIU condition that equal 60% or more and the TDIU condition gets bumped to 100% schedular, no harm no foul. Your money stays the same.

If however reaching schedular 100% on the TDIU issue would reduce an SMC award, the VA by law and regulation is required to keep you as TDIU even though you are schedular for that condition.

This is because the VA has a duty to maximize the veterans compensation and in the scenario where SMC would reduce, changing you to Schedular would reduce your compensation.

hope that helps

 

 

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yes in my opinion you can file for IU and have at least a 70% shot of getting it Awarded using CFR 4 .16(b) 

to

provides that marginal employment is generally deemed to exist when a Veteran’s earned income does not exceed the amount established by the U.S. Census Bureau as the average poverty threshold for one person.

 & Based on this

''plus having the physical limitations I have. I have to continually stand, sit, or lie down because of the issues I have with the pain and nerve issues. provides that marginal employment is generally deemed to exist when a Veteran’s earned income does not exceed the amount established by the U.S. Census Bureau as the average poverty threshold for one person.

you will need a specialist to give his/her opinion on your disability's rather or not you can do any type of employment that meets the SSG Income ''and read  your pertains medical records and also has examined you ''

''The Specialist needs to quote this or something close to''

''It is likely as not this veteran can not do ANY type of employment due to his S.C. Disability's( AND GO INTO DETAILS AS WHY NOT) about your S.C. Disability and rather your condition is likey not expected to improve in your life time  or your condition is of nature and no exams scheduled.

I suggest you get into VA Voc-Rehab and if they can't find you any type job you can't do  due to your S.C. Disability   then ask the counselor to write you a  '' it is non-feasible to retrain this Veteran at this time letter due to your S.C. Disability's''

'' And does it matter if I am at 100% P&T (I am hoping to get there soon).''

yes it matters quite a bit ,you get more benefits being P&T  like 

ChampVA  Insurance and free 10.000.paid life insurance policy  on you,and educational benefits for your spouse and children under 23 years of age. plus commissary prev's

And usually if your over 55  very seldom do the send  a veteran to a C&P Exam  with P&T  (But this is not promised they won't)

 

 

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Note''*

Paulstrgn,  you need to start another thread  we don't wont to hi-jack Ronc531 Post here!

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