No Record of Injury?

[Buck52]

If a Veteran was Injured while in the military /war zone...(Vietnam)

AND he never sought medical care but some 40/45 years later  that old injury has caused bad arthritis in both knees, Dr's have mention what the veteran had mention about the old injury that yes it could be related to his now diagnose VA Arthritis 

However  since a Veteran needs medical records as evidence  and none are there because he never received medical attention when his injury occurred...just as thousands of veterans did back in Vietnam  they got injured but never went for medical treatment...we all just limp around for a few weeks until the injury got better and we just moved on.

o buddy statements are good    but been to long and most of the buddys have either passed away or can't find any of them that knew about the injury.

but to file a claim for this and  va Dr mention that it could possibly be the cause of the veterans aurthritis in his knees...this apparently is not good enough for the claim  to claim as evidence.

if the VA says no record of the injury then the claim is denied.

That just don't seem fair to me.

[brokensoldier244th]

I understand your frustration, but what’s is the alternative? So some injuries you can establish a connection to from 50 years ago- arthritis is one of them. Va doesn’t just look for med records, if we can find counseling statements, daily orders, ship logs, lod forms, those can work too, but the situation you have presented is a perfect storm of “take my word for it”. No other benefits entity would take such a claim at face value either, and, va is pretty generous with most of the requirements threshold of plausibility. A example- work short term or long term disability isn’t going to concede workplace exposure, or take a buddy statement as evidence of an injury or an occurrence.

Last week I used a newspaper story about  a ship Explosion in the Gulf from years ago that didn’t mention a sailor by name, but he was one of the few rated SAR swimmers From the USN ship that showed up to help., to establish plausibility for injuries and ptsd. His record was mostly silent on direct injuries otherwise and this was from something like 10 years ago. That allowed me to Establish plausibly to get him exams. It’s not an approval by any means but his foot is in the door.

 

an insurance company would not be nearly so lax on standards. If va didn’t draw a line somewhere with acceptable evidence and the need for at least something, we’d all have ptsd, and arthritis, and deafness but be able to claim it all 30 yrs later. That’s not right either. I’ve used “no medical evidence” of An injury but a really heavy duty mos like mortar crewman with no doctor reports at the time, but a letter from a current doctor after discharge trying to connect the two a means of establishing enough to get someone an exam it literally doesn’t take much for most things. 

[shrekthetank1]

Did the person write any letters back home talking about the injury?  Did they themselves do a Lay statement describing the incident?  Do they remember the specific day and area they were in as the military does keep track of things like this.

Did they ever talk to anyone back home who can back their story up?  

[broncovet]

Buck:  YOU DO NOT (necessarily) need MEDICAL TREATMENT for an in service injury in order to get service connection.   You need documentation of an "in service" event.  Documetation, not necessarily medical treatment.  

Example from past hadit posts:

    This Veteran was a para trooper, who jumped out of airplanes, making more than 200 jumps.  (This is documented).  

However, he did not receive medical treatment for knee injuries in service.  He was eventually awarded SC for knee issues because he had evidence of an "in service event" even tho he had no treatment in service for knee injuries.  A doctor had no problem in providing a nexus.  Its not too suprising jumping out of airplanes can cause knee injuries, and this is an "in service event". (jumps out of airplanes).

Example number 2:

    You work on an aircraft carrier, guiding jets to land on the runway, and fueling jets for takeoff.  You experience hearing loss, 20 years later.  You have documentation of the same, with no medical treatment for hearing loss until 20 years later.  Jet engines are a loud noise (very loud).  Your audioligist opines that its "at least as likely as not" your exposure to jet engine noise caused your sensonureral hearing loss.  

     In both these cases, you did not have IN SERVICE medical treatment, but you did have documentation of an in service event.  Along with a nexus, and current diagnosis, (in service diagnosis is not necessary)  you meet the Caluza elements.  

Edited July 22, 2020 by broncovet (see edit history)

[Buck52]

I understand what you guys are saying here

this was me were talking about here.

What happen I was on the bumper of a Duce& Half Military Truck  this truck was hot meaning it just came in and was loading personal back up to go back out, ok I was up on the bumper raised the hood and reach over to take the radiator cap off  and about the time I took the cap off I looked over into the radiator  to check the fluid level and hot scaleding fluids came up out of the raditor hitting my head  before ai could get out of the way   I then feel off the truck bumper on to hard rock on both my knees  my legs were bent back wards  all my weight was on my knees  this agonizing pain...so I went to a buddy medic that was in my unit and he gave me some pain meds to take but this was never logged down  he had some in his pocket and he just took some out for me to use to help with the pain  my knees were black blue purple pink for a few weeks  nothing obviously was broken so I just sucked it up and went on  limp around  for a few weeks...of course my co ask me what happen  but since I did not get medical attention the injury was not that bad......but my story is really not about me  if I could get it service connected I already would have did that.

but threes other veterans out there that may read these post and hopefully they can get some insight as to what to do and what to present as their evidence  such as what you guys have mention here.

Thanks

Buck

[Buck52]

broncovet

No I had no documentation what so ever ,  the event did happen obviously, but no medical reports or documentations of the event that happen

That's the problem here.

Only a few of my close buddys knew about it  and my C.O.  but he just made lite of it   and basically had me to just suck it up  he never said that but I knew what he meant     he said if I didn't get medical attrition maybe it was not that bad and just ask all of us to move on and do our jobs

I barley remember my CO.name and can't remember my buddy's real names  we all had nic-names that went with our personality or where we were from back home,  for me I was the OKIE from Oklahoma ect,,,ect,,,,

some were from Tennessee and I do remember a buddy we called moonshiner

but thats about all I can remember.

 

Edited July 22, 2020 by Buck52 (see edit history)

[brokensoldier244th]

I understand, Buck. I wasn't meaning to sound contrary- its early in the AM for me, yet. I completely see your point, I just wanted to provide some insight into it from the other end, too. We can take a LOT of things that aren't normally considered evidence as evidence- buddy letters and news accounts, for example- to establish a time or place and a plausibility event to try to connect. But in some situations that just isn't possible no matter how much scouring I do.

 

In the event I noted above about the ship it was the the USS JPJ and Sulut Valor in 2012. It was a minor news event for the day for most places but Navy.mil had a pretty good account of it that was sanitized. I had a counseling statement for the sailor in question from his supervisor that gave glowing reviews of his overall mission readiness, and that he had volunteered to learn SAR, then later was a squad level teacher to other new sailors coming to the ship. I was able to argue that as "well, if he was so good at his job he WOULDN"t have not been part of the event in question, and most likely he'd be first out of the boat". The QVSR  (quality VSR- like Quality Assurance for claims- they audit us randomly and can issue deferrals for us to fix errors or inconsistencies) agreed with me and allowed the exams even though there was no direct medical/sick call/etc of record at the time or later on his exit physical a year later about any injuries or MH issues. *shrug*

 

A lot of it is how much work you put into it (me). I'm still new and pretty hungry, so I probably dig more to err on the side of being able to say that I did as much as I could. I hope I never get to the point of "well, I did what I had to...." to kick a case along. 

[brokensoldier244th]

13 minutes ago, Buck52 said:

I understand what you guys are saying here

this was me were talking about here.

What happen I was on the bumper of a Duce& Half Military Truck  this truck was hot meaning it just came in and was loading personal back up to go back out, ok I was up on the bumper raised the hood and reach over to take the radiator cap off  and about the time I took the cap off I looked over into the radiator  to check the fluid level and hot scaleding fluids came up out of the raditor hitting my head  before ai could get out of the way   I then feel off the truck bumper on to hard rock on both my knees  my legs were bent back wards  all my weight was on my knees  this agonizing pain...so I went to a buddy medic that was in my unit and he gave me some pain meds to take but this was never logged down  he had some in his pocket and he just took some out for me to use to help with the pain  my knees were black blue purple pink for a few weeks  nothing obviously was broken so I just sucked it up and went on  limp around  for a few weeks...of course my co ask me what happen  but since I did not get medical attention the injury was not that bad......but my story is really not about me  if I could get it service connected I already would have did that.

but threes other veterans out there that may read these post and hopefully they can get some insight as to what to do and what to present as their evidence  such as what you guys have mention here.

Thanks

Buck

No fitness counseling, profile, scathing statement from a squad leader about limited duty, didnt show up for a formation or three, LOD, checkbox on exit physical for knees, nothing (did they do LODs in Vietnam Era?) ?  That sucks, and Im sorry. Im not sure what else there might be to dig for on that one. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by brokensoldier244th (see edit history)

[Buck52]

I need to say I had a Temp MOS but that was not changed on my DD 214 WHICH WAS 63B&C Wheel vehicle&track mechanic, but was change when I got to my unit after 2 months  to recovery of disabled military vehicles in hostile enemy territory.

i HAD TO GO OUTSIDE THE UNIT AND HOOK UP TO THE DISABLED MILITARY VEHICLES AND BRING THEM BACK TO MY UNIT  FROM APC;S TO JEEPS AND DEUCE & HALFS   TO INCLUDE SEEING A LOT OF BLOOD SHED  IT WAS NOT A PRETTY SIGHT TO SEE.  ...TO SAY THE LEAST.

I Sent in my evidence to the BOARD OF MILITARY RECORD CORRECTIONS  IN VIRGINA BUT DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE FOR THEM TO USE MY TEMP MOS AND HAVE IT CHANGE TO THE CORRECT TEMP MOS ON MY DD 214

SO I JUST SAID WELL FORGET IT THEN.  TO MANY BAD MEMORY'S FOR ME TO GO BACK THAT FAR AND START REMEMBERING.

..I HAD Documentation like in country travel orders and TDY orders AND OLD MAPS LOCATIONS AS OF THE DIRECTION I HAD TO TAKE WHEN GOING OUT.AS DRAWN OUT NAVIGATED  BY MY C.O.

SOME OF THAT WAS DOCUMENTED  BUT THE BOARD OF MILITARY CORRECTIONS SAID IT WAS NOT ENOUGH TO MAKE THE CHANGE TO MY TEMP MOS ON MY DD 214..I KEPT AUGURING WITH THEM OVER THIS FOR ABOUT 4 YEARS  AND FINALLY GAVE UP.

MY C.O. NEVER CHANGE MY MOS OVER TO MY TEMP MOS ON PAPER WORK THIS WAS JUST VERBAL INSTRUCTIONS AND THIS HAS CAUSED ME PROBLEMS EVER SINCE I  LEFT  NAM.

AS TO ALL OF US NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT IT BACK THEN.  THINGS JUST WENT UNSAID AS LONG AS YOU KNEW WHAT TO DO  AND YOU DID IT AND HOW TO HANDEL YOURSELF AND ABLE TO USE A WEAPON.  FOR ME I CARRIED MY M--16  and a 45 Pistola and a RPG  WITH EXTRA AMMO.

i NEED TO SAY NONE OF THIS IS IN MY C-FILE?I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY..I WAS THERE AND MY DD 214 REFLECTS MY UNIT MY SERVICE IN THE RVN ,MY MEDALS RIBBONS  AWARDS  BUT THAT'S IT AND A PLAQ GIVEN TO ME BY MY SPECIAL OPERATIONS BRANCH UNIT I WAS IN. FOR A JOB WELL DONE

[brokensoldier244th]

Board of military corrections wouldn't automatically be in your C file unless we needed to do a character of discharge determination (like, if you are Gen under Hon, vs Dishonorable, vs General, etc)  to determine eligibility for benefits. If you already had a DD214 that established active qualifying service entered in at the beginning, we don't need to check that again UNLESS it becomes part of a records request to verify statements on a 21-0781 for stressors if you had filed for PTSD or something. Then if there isn't enough to establish a stressor we do a records request and go look for every service record, etc, we can find, in order to establish time in place, orders, etc.

In the case of a COD determination I have seen court martial docket notes in a c-file for determining character of discharge. A dishonorable is pretty much out, but a general, or under other than honorable conditions are subject to review and can come out in your favor depending on the circumstances. 

 

 

[Buck52]

Well I did need to use the location and dates for my PTSD CLAIM

and close to the operation I was in   and the name of the operation MY UNIT the locations and approx dates  I remember these dates because it was Christmas Day  so I sent in my lay statement as the best I could remember, the VA Checked this out and what I had mention in my lay statement was found to be truthfull  as for as my stressors go.

I know the board of military records corrections is not in my c-file but my RVN SERVICE should have some records in it but it don't . (nothing about Vietnam what so ever.).and I have read my entire C-file over and over  it was updated in 2014 and converted over to a C.D. disk from tons stacks of paper in my old c-file.boxes.

I went to school under the GI Bill BACK IN THE EARLY 70'S and a lot of that paper work is in my C-FILE..BUT HARDLY NOTHING FROM MY MILITARY SERVICE.

BUT THIS CD  SURE MAKES IT A LOT EASIER TO READ UP ON &FIND OLD RECORDS AND NOTES.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Buck52 (see edit history)

[brokensoldier244th]

I know, right? I love digital records! Easy for me to search, too, since I can CTRL-F though some of it with adobe to find things. I have a list of relevant "key" words that is ever growing that I search for to find things. We don't use paper files anymore (well, the raters sometimes do, I don't), but OCR and Adobe isn't perfect so there is still a lot of Eyeballing. 

[Buck52]

I use the acrobat pro reader program  which is now outdated  but it works on on my CD -C-FILE.just fine

And Word Finder makes it a lot easier to find things you need in a hurry.

[Buck52]

My post was to hopefully help other veterans that come here but do not post for there own reasons...but the information on something like this may help  and  having not reported injury's while in the service happens a lot maybe not as much as it use to  because now days I think military personal of all branches are reporting their injury  which is a good thing to get them documented  opposed to us older veterans that did not report them.

I doubt I could get this service connectd  but thats ok I have enough conditions that I have claimed that got me up to the 100% and a couple SMC.

Right now I been looking at the criteria for A&A for my spouse & were getting medical records together and as soon as I have a permanent Address WE WILL FILE A CLAIM AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

I maybe asking some questions about this in the near future.

Thanks to everyone who responded Back.

[GBArmy]

Buck didn't you say you have copies of your TDY records? that is evidence that could support that your transfer resulted in a temp MOS change. If you had a buddy letter from anyone in the new unit, that certainly would work. But I know it isn't as easy as it is now to stay connected. And 50 years sure doesn't help finding an old buddy that you lost track to either. I's just another hint to the younger veterans it isn't too late to try and connect. You never know when it could come in handy for both of you.

[broncovet]

Nobody wants to hear about mistakes we made in the past, and I certainly have done more than my share.  The obvious answer, however, at your exit physical did you mention this?  

Of course, if you applied for benefits with in a year of exit from service you should be given a presumptive.  Yes, I know your buddies are not available for buddy letters.  Your CO is probably long gone.  

TIme deteriorates our claim's..the evidence gets weaker and weaker the longer we wait.  More records get destroyed.  WItnesses die or move.  Believe me, if I point the finger at you 4 of them come back to me.  I cant even get SC for knee arthritis "even tho" its documented I fractured my leg in service.  Stupidly, I did not apply for this years ago.  I have no one to blame but myself.  

Fortunately, for me, SC for arthritis wont matter ten cents for me.  I have 100 percent plus SMC S, and another 20 or 30 percent, even if it were both knees, probably would not change my pay one cent.  

Someday, however, it may make a difference..especially if I have "loss of use" of one or more of my legs due to arthritis, and/or the total knee replacement I got almost 2 years ago.  

I just pick the fights "that matter", and let the others go.  A and A for your spouse may be worth fighting for..it sounds like she needs it.  

 

[Buck52]

GB Actually I did submit a copy of my in -county travel orders an  TDY  Documents to the Board of Military Records Correction.

they came back and said that was not evidence to make the change over  they go by what is in your recent 201 file and go by that  if you had a mistake on it at that time you should speak up that was the time to have it change..as for as telling them about my experince in NAM and me getting hurt  NO I never actually thought about any of this, my knees were fine my hearing was ok  I had to reason to mention any of these conditions I have now I was physically fit as a fiddle back then

to be honest

I never ever thought aboutany of  this  at that time I was just glad to be home and out of the military,I had girls on my mind  not to take away from  that the nice Vietnamese women they were nice especially the part french Vietnamese  were nice and pretty and ''MAMA SONS''..BUT being gone so long and free as a jay bird so after I  checked out  went through my phyical if you can call it a phyiscal  only ask me questions they never laid a hand on me

all my documents sign  I was out of there and hit the town

**Please note I was not married while I was in the military that came about 1 year later.After I got out.

and still married to the same pretty woman I married some 47 years or so ago

[Lemuel]

Step one--Searching for people in your unit.  FOIA to the DOD with your unit name, Dates, and the purpose.  They can give you name, and rank of the individuals in your unit.  Also ask for the motor pool log to see if the vehicle require any kind of recorded care.

Step two--after identifying the medic, write a letter to him and ask the VA to foreword it.  Also to any others you remember having witnessed the incident. 

Step three--despite the outcome of step 2, apply for an extra-schedular decision based upon the "circumstances of war".  List your witnesses as best you remember them, ask for assistance, and hope for the best.  Be sure to have a statement from a physician saying that if what you describe happened it is more likely than not, or at least as likely as not, the old injury is the nexus of the knee arthritis.

Do it before the Administrative pressure at the top changes back to denial.  It is still in denial mode since Reagan's war on entitlements at the lower levels.  Don't expect much help from your local VARO unless pressure is put on from the Executive Director's office making the decision effectively though it goes back down to the DRO.  If you don't get the assist from the DRO needed complain in a letter to the Executive Director's office.

May not do any good.  I identified a Dental Tech who witnessed an MVA I had on Guam.  He received the letter but didn't respond.  All I needed from his was what he told me he saw, when I saw him a few weeks after the MVA.  I apparently had a short absence seizure and a pickup mysteriously appeared stopped directly in front of me.  His description to me was that he told his wife I was going to hit the vehicle in front of me.  I barely got my foot on the brake.  It was similar to many near MVA and some minor MVA that weren't reported.  But the most similar was the one in 1990 that I was confirmed to have a seizure based upon the objective evidence of EEG readings prior to the MVA stating "with or without seizures."  My DL was suspended for seizures by the VA physician who confirmed my seizure.

Even if I had that there is no guaranteeing I could get an attentive ear.  I'm still trying to SC complex partial seizures (temporal lobe epilepsy) that I am finally being treated for properly after all those years after the confirmation.  Fortunately, I may have a leg up.  I have a CUE on a Substantive Appeal never making it to the BVA on the claim with the Denver VARO denying its timely existence in 1998 though it was received in the record 6 months after the Statement of the Case.

One of the problems I am having is getting the Seizure Clinic records for the 1990-1991 mistreatment with Tegretol which shouldn't have been given to me on two counts.  The type of seizure diagnosed and my previous recorded sensitivity to amitriptyline.

So who said the world is fair? 

Sometimes we luck out as I did and blow by it all to a point.  I got TDIU back to September 16, 1985, the last day of my full time employment from the Executive Director, Compensation Services on an extraschedular claim that hadn't been processed that was dated in October of 1987.  It took two days from the DRO in DC's recommendation for Beth Murphy, the Executive Director, Compensation Services to sign off and recommend the date.  The Decision was made finale 3 months later by the DRO on the remanded "extra-schedular" claim on July 7, 2020.  I now have over $300,000 after paying my attorney over $80,000.  (and I now have an imitation Japanese hot spring spa in my basement which helps my arthritis)  Most of the three months was spent calculating and recalculating the amount due because of changes in the interim on my rating level, a recoupment of my spousal benefit because SSA transposed my wife's birth day from 12 to 21 so the VA and SSA records didn't match and then re-awarding the spousal benefits after someone told me what the problem was and we got the SSA records corrected.

I'm still in the mix of it.  Still want the SC of the seizures and an extra-schedular EED back to 1974 on the seizures which progressively got worse until adequately treated in 2015.  I want to see if I can press that the failure to provide 38 CFR 4.42 compliant injury exams is a clear and unmistakable error similar to overlooking a claim or Substantive Appeal.  This is something that has been willfully done by the VA since my first examinations.  I can't find any decisions or regulations on dating of seizures after they are confirmed.  If anyone has info on that, please post it here.

I have a wrist injury that involves the thumb metacarpal ankylosis to the wrist.  My claim has always been for residuals of the wrist injury.  The examiner only examines the articulation of the wrist with the finger metacarpals.  They refuse to measure the thumb use in an examination because it wasn't ordered.  The VA keeps examination orders close to the chest.  They do not appear in your file.  Only the scheduling.  38 CFR 4.42 is very clear that "all affected body systems" are to be reported in injury examinations.  I haven't found a challenge on the exams given in any case file.  38 CFR 4.42 has been clear on "injury examination" requirements without change since before 1974, probably back to at least 1947.  The requirement includes a complete neurology exam which is rarely done and wasn't on my injuries.  Both my TBI effective date and my wrist effective date and ratings are affected.

So if any of you know of cases related to these challenges, I would like to hear from you on this thread.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Lemuel
left out important part (see edit history)

[Lemuel]

Also, Buck, I can give you a statement confirming the often omission of entries in the health record by field corpsman and frequent failure to include a field medical tag in the record at the field medical unit if you are referred there for something relatively minor that the field medic couldn't handle.  Such as a prescription for a strong pain med and a replenishment of his pack.  I was one my last year in Vietnam.