What form should you use?

[broncovet]

After some research, I have decided the VA has a definite answer to this question of "which VA form do I use?":   

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The VA has no idea which form to use!!!!!!  No clue.  Ask a different employee, get a different answer each time!!  

At least ONE well known Vets advocate says to "use both" and let VA discard whichever one they dont like.  

In this Vet's advocat's (Asknod) own words:

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VA "intake specialists" subscribe to the theory of:  "Has it been filed for yet or not?" So, if you have never filed for A&A, to them it's a new claim. Period. The fact that they were supposed to "infer" it as an ancillary claim by law is immaterial. To them, you have not filed for it yet. If you use the 995 supplemental path, they will do a look back for any prior filing for A&A and see nothing. At that point, due to a short between the ears, they will inform you that you have chosen the wrong form to file with and reject it until you send in the 526. I've played this game with them and even had a second letter identical to the first saying the form I used was incorrect and to review the AMA process on VAF 21-0998 to select the right one. At that point, I call up my CMA and ask her to fix it. 

As I pointed out, you can't ever go wrong by filing both forms and letting them play Phonics and sounding it out. 

 

Does anyone else find it incredible that VA is sooooooo messsed up...they dont have a real firm policy of what form to use when submitting an application for benefits?????  Or, they do have a policy, but VA employees are so poorly trained that they have no idea what the rules are for using a particular form.  

[brokensoldier244th]

Duty to assist is this: The duty to assist requires VA to gather the evidence that will help support a veterans claim, such as service personnel records, service medical records, and VA medical records. All of that is federal records. It requires us to schedule an exam if the elements are all met. It requires us to notify you with a Final Notification Letter when federal resources can't find the records like STRs or VAMC records, or personnel records, and it requires that that letter also indicate that if we can't find them the responsibility is now on you to try to gather it before a decision is made. 

Duty to assist covers telling you to send your personal records or fill out the releases we send so we can get them from private providers, sending you the forms for personal stressors and whatever, and printing things like on the instructions on page 2 what forms you need if you are claiming PTSD, IU, have Vet Center treatment, or have dependents. Duty to 
Assist does not require the Board of Veterans Affairs to help you gather more evidence although it DOES obligate them to remand back to ROs if there was an error in the handling of the claim PRIOR to whenever it was appealed and tell them to fix it. 

 

Thats about it for what Duty to Assist covers

. 

There are already public contact people in the ROs and clinics/hospitals, VA social workers, VSO's and other POA's.....and today I got an email that said VSO's are now going to get emails whenvever something is added to your file- which, while I think its great, is going to piss a lot of them off as much as they say that want more access to your file. They already have access to everything- we can't make them go re-check it.

That's supposed to be their job. They said months and more ago that they wanted more access and were upset that they were no longer getting notifications (no idea when that started- sorry- before I started there) about decisions and  whatever being put in your file before being finalized. Well, now they are going to get an email every time something gets uploaded if I understand correctly. Their organizations handle how many VSOs they hire, so, hopefully they hire and train a lot more because they are going to need them. 

 In the case of the above form it already has a specific form number. The days of filing everything on a 21-516 or 21-4138 went away not long after I got out and that was in 2002. Claims are also not denied for filing the wrong form unless a veteran continually ignores when we send them the correct one along with a letter telling them that this is the form they need to fill out in order for their claim to be worked. If they don't respond to us telling them the form they need to fill out......? The information about not just filing on a 526ez has been out for years, now. AMA not nearly so long but still 2018. 

I had 35 claims this week  where veterans that claimed PTSD  stressors by writing "PTSD" on their application with no conceded combat or information about fear based or MST stressors. Nothing about why they were claiming PTSD. Just "PTSD". So I sent them the correct form  (21-0781) and a letter where I deleted part of the boilerplate text out and tell them what they need this form for and why they need to fill it out, that there has to be something to corroborate for a stressor. My duty to assist was right there, though I usually push it. 

I can't apologize for the organization as a whole- i'm not the whole VA and I know as well as you do that there are those that do the bare minimum. When I come across those claims, if they have had the required two notifications but I see that one of them was vague, jacked up, sent to the wrong address (this happens, though if vets don't update their contact info as much as it does through laziness on the part of VA people) or queued up in the mail system and never sent,  I send them another one anyway. I also get in trouble for it about once a quarter because I am exceeding what duty to assist requires. I really don't care, and Ive told my supervisor as much (not in so many words) :-). He usually just sighs, signs whatever acknowledgement form that I need to sign and then it goes in my file. 

 

*oopsie*

Still, Pac, you are saying enough isn't done for duty to assist. So, I guess, tell me what more you think needs to be done? The fiscal year is coming up soon and it's survey time and year end assessment at the VA. I get asked about once every week and a half in some meeting, or via internal survey or email, what improvements I think can be made.  Im 44- I had no problem with the VA forms and their march towards computerization, and I didn't have  most of the problems that some of you have had in the past X years- but I also fully understand that there are many that do because I've worked with them before my job here, I see some of it while Im at work, and still do some outside assistance outside of work hours on a much more limited basis.

Your statement is vague- what more do you think Duty to Assist (or just policy in general) should do/cover/offer? 

 

CAS

 

[broncovet]

Broken soldier...

   You posted:  

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claimed PTSD  stressors by writing "PTSD" on their application with no conceded combat or information about fear based or MST stressors. Nothing about why they were claiming PTSD.

Frankly, the VA "does not beleive a word we say", so many Vets dont speak any more words on their application than necessary.  EVERYTHING must be documented.  Even my old VSO did a NOD which said, "I disagree with the decision dated 11-12-2002 on all issues".  That is it.  

He says fewer words, less explanation is better.  Why?  Well, VA loves to "use our words against us".  Frankly,  many Vets dont trust VA, and many have excellent reasons not to.   Specifically, for example, my son has PTSD.  He does NOT, repeat NOT want to talk about it, and most of the Vets I know would rather go to the dentist than to discuss their PTSD/stressor/etc.  "ONCE" should suffice.  In other words the Vet does not want to tell his counselor, his psychiatrist, his VSO, and so state it on his VA application for who knows how many will read it.  Many dont even like to tell their spouse about their war experiences.  

Not all Veterans "even speak English", let alone understand what a "stressor" means.  Sure, many of us on hadit are college educated, and most are computer literate.  This is particulary true with Vets with a mental disorder, such as PTSD, MDD, TBI, etc, and combat Vets are often not "high tech".  

There is no requirement a Veteran "even know what a stressor is", or, that he understands what "PTSD" means.  Its up to his doctor to diagnose PTSD, where the VA claims a "non VA doc" cant diagnose PTSD for benefit purposes.  

If a person is diagnosed with PTSD, some sort of trauma is presumed that caused it.   Since his stressor has to be documented ANYWAY, why would the Veteran need to discuss it and give a detailed explanation.  

Im very rare.  I talk, or post alot.  But many, most men are "few words".  This is particulary true with war time stressors.  Sometimes "talking" about it can be a trigger, to cause "a PTSD episode".  It would be even worse for many to write about it on an application or talk about it to a VSO.  Discussing it with a doc should suffice, the Vet isnt gonna get VA benefits on his own words alone anyway, so many just prefer to keep their mouth shut.  

In particular, PTSD Vets are often paranoid, and many simply dont trust the government.  ESPECIALLY with PTSD Vets, its up to the VA to connect the dots, find the stressor in his record, and/or accept the docs opinion, which is mandantory for benefits anyway.  

While I try to give many details, I find the VA does not beleive me anyway, and have to have it verified, so Im better off keeping my mouth shut.  

 

[brokensoldier244th]

1 hour ago, broncovet said:

Broken soldier...

   You posted:  

Frankly, the VA "does not beleive a word we say", so many Vets dont speak any more words on their application than necessary.  EVERYTHING must be documented.  Even my old VSO did a NOD which said, "I disagree with the decision dated 11-12-2002 on all issues".  That is it.  

He says fewer words, less explanation is better.  Why?  Well, VA loves to "use our words against us".  Frankly,  many Vets dont trust VA, and many have excellent reasons not to.   Specifically, for example, my son has PTSD.  He does NOT, repeat NOT want to talk about it, and most of the Vets I know would rather go to the dentist than to discuss their PTSD/stressor/etc.  "ONCE" should suffice.  In other words the Vet does not want to tell his counselor, his psychiatrist, his VSO, and so state it on his VA application for who knows how many will read it.  Many dont even like to tell their spouse about their war experiences.  

Not all Veterans "even speak English", let alone understand what a "stressor" means.  Sure, many of us on hadit are college educated, and most are computer literate.  This is particulary true with Vets with a mental disorder, such as PTSD, MDD, TBI, etc, and combat Vets are often not "high tech".  

There is no requirement a Veteran "even know what a stressor is", or, that he understands what "PTSD" means.  Its up to his doctor to diagnose PTSD, where the VA claims a "non VA doc" cant diagnose PTSD for benefit purposes.  

If a person is diagnosed with PTSD, some sort of trauma is presumed that caused it.   Since his stressor has to be documented ANYWAY, why would the Veteran need to discuss it and give a detailed explanation.  

Im very rare.  I talk, or post alot.  But many, most men are "few words".  This is particulary true with war time stressors.  Sometimes "talking" about it can be a trigger, to cause "a PTSD episode".  It would be even worse for many to write about it on an application or talk about it to a VSO.  Discussing it with a doc should suffice, the Vet isnt gonna get VA benefits on his own words alone anyway, so many just prefer to keep their mouth shut.  

In particular, PTSD Vets are often paranoid, and many simply dont trust the government.  ESPECIALLY with PTSD Vets, its up to the VA to connect the dots, find the stressor in his record, and/or accept the docs opinion, which is mandantory for benefits anyway.  

While I try to give many details, I find the VA does not beleive me anyway, and have to have it verified, so Im better off keeping my mouth shut.  

 

The point is, that on the stressor statement all they have to do then is say “ see therapist notes vague time period x, y , z…”.  then it can be found in this medical notes, a whole hell of a lot faster, I might add.  if you don’t want stuff missed AND a relatively quick claim, maybe a little assistance from you so as not to have to locate a needle in a haystack isn’t too much to ask. 
 

The VA is not going to just accept a ptsd diagnosis as being service connected without certain criteria. This is also no secret- it’s right on the form.  Reason being is that lots of things cause ptsd and I see veteran applications where they had ptsd before they went in, or, have events afterwards that caused it. Just because a doctor says it doesn’t make it true either. Lots of those out there, too, for a fee. 

Not everything ptsd is military just because someone was in- but there are claimants that say so. So, yes, besides having a diagnosis, a vet is going to be asked some basic information corroborating information, and their doctors notes are going to be looked at.  Since it’s part of the three things necessary to establish service connection in the first place this should not be a surprise. I don’t think it’s a stretch to have to provide some basic proof or at least plausible association of ptsd with military service before getting a disability determination.

Edited August 15, 2021 by brokensoldier244th

[broncovet]

You posted:

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The point is, that on the stressor statement all they have to do then is say “ see therapist notes vague time period x, y , z…”.  then it can be found in this medical notes, a whole hell of a lot faster, I might add.

While this may work for some Vets, some of the time, many Vets simply wouldnt/couldnt do that.  Your presumption is that the Vet either remembers the exam where the doc stated this, or he can find (and read) hundreds of pages of medical files to find this.  All this would need to be done by a Veteran who meets THIS criteria:

 

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Total occupational and social impairment, due to such symptoms as: gross impairment in thought processes or communication; persistent delusions or hallucinations; grossly inappropriate behavior; persistent danger of hurting self or others; intermittent inability to perform activities of daily living (including maintenance of minimal personal hygiene); disorientation to time or place; memory loss for names of close relatives, own occupation, or own name.

During the 65 minutes or so I will be online reading this, another Vet will likely die to his own hand.  (See below for source)

Its highly unlikely that a person "with total social and occupational impairment" with PERSISTENT delusions or hallucinations, who was disoriented to time or place, and could not remember names of close relatives or his own name, would be able to "see therapist notes on period mm-dd-yy".  

You are expecting a person with (potentially) a severe mental disorder to complete a form including evidence of a stressor.   

I think this ( potentially severely impaired Vet) would be more likely to be able to perform brain surgery than provide this level of documentation.  Remember, they forgot their relatives name (or their own name) and forgot their occupation.  But VA requires them to "name a stressor" and the dates its documented?  

My brother, while he does not have PTSD, would not be able to comply with your request.  First, he is really a slow reader, and would simply not be able to read a 100 page plus medical/cfile.  

I just read where one school district "is not requiring" high school graduates be able to read or write.  Sure, many of us could/would/did be able to read our file and show documentation dates of a stressor, for example.  But many, many more would not be able to accomplish this task.  

My son, who DOES, IMHO have PTSD (from service) does not read well enough to find this information, and wont even go get help for his PTSD.  

ZERO.  He needs the help but wont seek it.  Ditto for my son in law.  He has a purple heart and "refuses" to apply for PTSD "even tho" he has shrapnel in his head and feet.  He reasons that "other Vets deserve it more" and, if he did get awarded PTSD, his guns would be taken away.  

And, a VSO who is supposed to help will likely give mixed results.  I see this from a claimant side, not from a VA employee side.  

I am a strong reader..college grad..I can do this stuff, but my VSO has no idea what DIC is, did not suggest I apply for pension "even tho" I was about to become homeless, had no income, and the requisite periods of service.  The VA raters didnt catch it either, and I wound up losing my home..when an application for pension, "should" have rescued me.  Even the 1100 per month would have been enough for me to keep my home, back in 2002, for many more months, until my compensation was finally awarded.  

I did not know what "pension" was.  I thought it was an amount of money you got when you retired from a company.  (Well, actually, it is).  

The system failed me, and has also failed many, many Vets.  Remember, about 22 Vets per day take their own life...more than were killed in service.  

Vets who take their own life often have extreme financial problems..and VA just does not help, often, not soon enough.  Yes, I was also suicidal.  

I was very depressed..and in a very low place..about to lose my home..and my family, unable to provide for them.  

yes, it would take time for you to look up the stressor..and verify.  And, probably more time than what is allowed for you to do the research necessary.  

But..there is little doubt that financial troubles are a contributing factor to suicide:

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In 2012 alone, an estimated 7,500 former military personnel died by suicide. More active duty service members, 177, succumbed to suicide that year than were killed in combat, 176. The Army suffered 52% of the suicides from all branches.^[1]

In 2013, the United States Department of Veteran Affairs released a study that covered suicides from 1999 to 2010, which showed that roughly 22 veterans were dying by suicide per day, or one every 65 minutes.^[4] Some sources suggest that this rate may be undercounting suicides.^[5] An analysis done in 2013 found a suicide rate among veterans of about 30 per 100,000 population per year, compared with the civilian rate of 14 per 100,000.^[5][6] However, the comparison was not adjusted for age and sex.

According to a report published by the United States Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) in 2016, which analyzed 55 million veterans' records from 1979 to 2014, the current analysis indicates that an average of 20 veterans die from suicide per day.^[7]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_veteran_suicide#:~:text=In 2013%2C the United States,or one every 65 minutes.

[brokensoldier244th]

They cant remember that they have at least been to a doctor or therapist even once? Even if they are at a 100% rating level that still doesn’t make them a vegetable. As Is said here all the the time, being 100% doesn’t make you completely incapable. I’m not saying literally day month year. And if they are at THAT level then someone is probably helping them because if they were so profoundly disabled as that description they would be able to find or fill out the forms in the first place. But that said VA cannot and will not do the whole process for them, anymore than SSA or disability insurance, or even going to a doctor. Those entities aren’t going to come to your house either, on their own (figurative). There still has to be some initiatory effort on the part on the person wanting the help. 
 

I was a veteran long before I came here, I’m aware on the stats on suicide, lousy VSOs, and all that. I lost my house in 2012 to a keys in lieu of forclosure. Not every vet is so profoundly bad off and the ones that I see on paper that are either either got help to apply, or had a moment of clarity and realized they needed to get someone to help them. The ones that refuse to apply at all? Let me know when you find a solution to that one. We can’t- and legally we can’t compel anyone to file or sign anything so the responsibility still lies solely on veterans to take at least some steps. 
 

 These vets that just wrote PTSD? They filed electronically and were in their 30s filing initial claims. So, it is not an undue imposition to expect THEM to go one more step. There is a middle ground between incapable and completely self sufficient.
 

These vets obviously knew there were benefits, how to get to the website, and all that. The least they could do is not complain on the phone hotline every two -three weeks after they initially filed wondering why it’s taking ‘so long’ and why can’t we just decide their claim already?
 

One today sent in their claim form unsigned with half of it blank. They are quite capable, however, they have two other claims going, on of them is an appeal, and they do pretty good self legal work when it comes time to complain about how they aren’t getting what’s due to them. I’ve read it all, pages and pages, yet they refuse to take and responsibility that their claims lack of progress is due mostly to them not splitting simple instructions that have been retyped in letters back to them (and one phone call) telling them what to do. they are, among other things, righteously indignant that I would ask them to tell me what they strs actually claiming, that the law doesn’t allow me, the VSR, to guess what disability it is they are filing fit and what body part, and that I’m supposed to just assume that they have TBI from an MOS that drives a desk, and in their case never deployed anywhere? Forgive me for asking for some clarification before I rubber stamp that one. I lots of variations of this to w. There is ‘entitled’ and then there is ’ENTITLED’. Usually the latter is our fellow right here, not the one you describe. 

VA can’t help anyone if we are expected by the veteran community to ‘help’ everyone. If you want the benefit you have to do something in return, at least a little. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by brokensoldier244th

[McRay]

On 8/12/2021 at 5:50 PM, Mr cue said:

Veterans are now have comp exam with workman comp ssi doctor.

Various C&P exams I've had done by the VA were always negative for me. I had one C&P exam done by an outside company and that was  favorable. VA care is somewhat touch and go also -- a lot seems dependent on where the facility is located. It helps if you have a Dr who will advocate for you and your treatment. I've had 3 in 30 years.