Feds Ask Judge to Reject Suit Over Treatment of Combat Veterans
I find after reading this again, I must comment on some of these issues discussed below. Kelley
My Opinion - like all of us has one.
I found it strange that Judge Conti suggested that if Veterans have a problem with “their legal system” and rights they address it with Congress or Veterans Affairs. When has anyone heard the congress step up and speak about Veterans Rights? They will go on CSPAN on the floor of the senate and the house and speak for days and days about the rights of terrorists and possible torture of terrorist, not one word about the treatment of Veterans.
They can talk about water boarding, which I guess in some circles is considered torture. Yet, when our own government uses its Veterans in biological chemical warfare (WMD) testing for over a decade creating a lifetime of misery or death this seemingly is acceptable to our elected officials and to our Executive Branch and the Commander in Chief with this legal system set aside for one segment of society.
Since when does the Judiciary allow Congress and the Executive Branch to take over legal justice and fairness? When did the separation of powers guaranteed by our constitution that so many in that segment of society died in protecting go away for those men and women. When and what segment of society is next for congressional and executive branch collusion while the judiciary sits with their pompous hands folded saying – not our problem.
As you recall, recently congress tried to take the asbestos victims and put them in this category of Executive Branch/Congressional collusion. Thankfully, enough in congress had the foresight to see how wrongful that would be. Moreover, it is wrong for Veterans and their widows to have to face this same cooked up government collusion with no guarantee of justice or fairness. Facing chemical company, Department of Defense, and Veterans Affairs lies that because of this cooked up system cannot be challenged.
Judge Conti said that in 1988, Congress created a system of reviewing veterans' claims and it can't be second-guessed by regular courts. How unconstitutional is that?
Now why did congress and the executive branch cook up such a biased legal system in 1988?
Vietnam Veterans and hoards of Herbicide claims; that is the why. Reagan/Bush had decided after the long protracted government lying fight with Veterans they did not want the financial responsibility of the mistakes of other administrations. Therefore, the system we have now was cooked up to at least delay, minimize, and to have a yearly undated budget on the award of such compensations in service connection, disability, and death.
HR 101-672 released in 1991 by congress identifies that the Reagan/Bush White House did indeed interfere with the CDC studies. (HR 101-672 “The Agent Orange cover-up: a case of flawed science and political manipulation.”) Still nothing was done or is being done to rectify this crime. Reagan and Bush, two from the “Greatest Generation,” deliberately caused the needless deaths and suffering of Vietnam veterans and our families. Moreover, it continues to this day in Vietnam Veterans; Gulf War Veterans; and Biological Chemical Warfare Testing Veterans and apparently the new Veterans.
The only reason that the Secretary of the VA even gave (non-Hodgkin’s) to the veterans was because of the leak that the Reagan/Bush administration had directed that they did not want to support the veterans in the toxic chemical issue. In other words, they tossed a bone to the veterans because they got caught. This “bone” was 22 years too late for many veterans, and their families. I am not aware of any attempt on the part of the VA to notify the families of deceased veterans of this changed ruling concerning this disease that might allow their widows to claim pensions.
Now you know how the government paid for destroying Russia by denying the billions of dollars of damages that were done to our Veterans. No different than the Veterans pay decreases paid for many of the social programs to get us out of the depression years.
In other words, a Vietnam Veterans VA Hamster Wheel, as it is known, was created along with a Vietnam Veterans Lottery System. Remember it was not until 1990-1991 that the first mortality disorder was finally admitted to by Veterans Affairs controlled by the Executive Branch.
On December 4, 1950, the United States Supreme Court engaged in the most devastating unconstitutional act in our Nation’s history by creating judicial-legislation known as the Feres Doctrine. Since that day, all American service members, veterans and their families have been stripped of, without their knowledge or consent, their inalienable Constitutional rights to petition our government for redress of grievances arising “incident to service” in our military. This has resulted in a long-train of human, constitutional, and systemic intentional abuses. It is argued that if the Feres Doctrine were abolished the federal laws on the books to remedy fraud, waste, abuse or dangers to the public health and welfare would be enforced, thus compelling the Government to prosecute rather than defend crimes.
Was the Feres Doctrine a cold-calculated atrocity? “Absolute power corrupts absolutely.” The Feres Doctrine and its blanket grant of “sovereign immunity” and the human and constitutional rights abuses dismissed by our Government to include “WMD’s” is “treachery and treason.” How can it not be declared treachery and treason for federal employees in our Government to injure and kill its own citizens and be afforded a legal “damage control tool” to cover up these illegal acts?
Now of course we older Veterans now understand this. However, if our judiciary system is going to allow this to happen then at least they should mandate that DoD and Veterans Affairs inform America’s perspective sons and daughters that are considering a military career that the constitution, even after discharge, no longer applies to them. Lets see if we have any takers, once they know the real facts that our courts systems will not look after them and they will be subject to congressional/executive branch justice departments.
Everyone understands the separate UCMJ and why it is needed while in the military.
Once out from under the UCMJ, the “rights of all citizens” should be reinstated to the former military personnel - no different than the convicted criminal or the terrorist who now has more rights than the former soldier.
Justice Scalia wrote:
“Feres was wrongly decided and heartily deserves the widespread, almost universal criticism it has received.” Furthermore, "Congress's inaction regarding this doctrine and its doing little, if anything in the way of modifying it to prevent Constitutional claims is clearly unjust and irrational. Again, allowing such power to military leaders can and does result in abuse therefore, where are the checks and balances on the military."
Maybe someone should ask Judge Conti, which segments of society, is the Judiciary Branch going to turn over to the congress/executive branch justice and legal system next.
Moreover if so, when will it be that the Judiciary is out of the business of justice and fairness IAW with the constitution and constitutional law?
Maybe Judges should be included in this new fair and just system so that when they are harmed or their children are harmed they to can join in the fight for some kind of real justice and fairness from the congress/executive branch where they make up their own rules of evidence and what constitutes evidence.
Does anyone know of any segment of society that would or will put up with being thrown out of the constitutional justice system.
That would be front page news on any major paper and media broadcast. When it comes to our disposable government obsolete Veterans - there is not even a peep.
I would add one of our I Corps Khe Sanh Marines suggestion is to contact a pro bono attorney similar to social security and I have heard some good reports back on these.
As I was told you can contact one of the following and if they think it has merit then they can assign you to the nearest participating attorney.
Trying to fight the VA as Congressman Filner suggested is worse than the disorder or disease.
Feds Ask Judge to Reject Suit Over Treatment of Combat Veterans
Bob Egelko
San Francisco Chronicle
Dec 17, 2007
December 15, 2007 - The government asked a San Francisco federal judge on Friday to dismiss a high-profile lawsuit challenging the system of treatment and benefits for returning combat veterans.
The government's lawyers argued that civil courts have no authority over the Department of Veterans Affairs' medical decisions or how it handles grievances and claims.
"If plaintiffs are not happy with the way the system is currently working, their remedy is to take it up with Congress" or with the veterans department, Justice Department attorney Daniel Bensing told U.S. District Judge Samuel Conti.
He said that in 1988, Congress created a system of reviewing veterans' claims and it can't be second-guessed by regular courts. It was the first hearing on the nationwide lawsuit that is being closely watched by veterans, their families, and advocacy groups.
The suit seeks a judicial finding that the VA's system of handling claims and appeals violates veterans' rights. The plaintiffs also want court orders requiring the department to provide immediate medical and psychological help to returning troops and to screen them for risk of stress disorders and suicide.
Gordon Erspamer, a lawyer for veterans' advocates, argued Friday that the system established under the 1988 law is rife with constitutional violations that federal courts are competent to judge. Wounded veterans, he said, are arbitrarily denied care and benefits, are forced to wait months for vital treatment and years for benefits, have no access to lawyers or potential witnesses, and have little recourse when their claims are rejected.
Under the current procedures, Erspamer said, the government "can deny health care to veterans coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan with impunity. ... If this court dismisses this case, there is no way that these claims will ever be adjudicated."
Conti, a World War II veteran and a judicial conservative during his 37 years on the bench, raised questions about the courts' authority over the dispute but did not say how he would rule on the government's dismissal motion.
The suit was filed in July by two organizations - Veterans for Common Sense and Veterans United for Truth - as a proposed class action on behalf of 320,000 to 800,000 veterans, or their survivors, claiming service-connected deaths and disabilities.
They focused on claims of post-traumatic stress disorder, increasingly common among returning troops. A Pentagon study group reported in June that about 84,000 veterans, more than one-third of those who sought care from the VA from 2002 through 2006, had been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress or another mental disorder.
The Pentagon group also found that the system was understaffed, prompting the VA to announce staffing increases in July. The suit said the department has a backlog of more than 600,000 disability claims.
Veterans' advocates say the VA pressures stressed-out soldiers to acknowledge pre-existing "personality disorders" that gain them a speedy discharge while forfeiting future disability benefits. Erspamer said improper delays and denials of treatment and benefits have contributed to an "epidemic of suicides."
I would like to ask Judge Conti to review veterans' claims by comparing the VA's denial documentation to the evidence and information that the veterans have actually submitted. We (veterans) can easily show examples of the VA discounting significant medical evidence, asserting it's own conjecture as evidence and intentionally misinterpreting veterans' claims and statements. The VA even ignores the medical opinions of its own VA doctors.
The VA quasi-judicial process does not respect constitutional parameters. While it may be a rhetorical due process of regulations, it is obviously not the Due Process of Law that criminals and other US citizens take for granted.
The VA's adjudication system, including the CAVC, applies regulations and rulings that contradict laws. A review of the laws enacted for veterans-- comparing the original texts and intents as they were when passed by Congress to the federal regulations resulting from the VA's "implementation" of the law-- would plainly show that the VA has reversed, disabled and contradicted every law made to extend justice to veterans and improve the veteran's lot.
The VA has become the dictatorial "fourth branch of government" that President Roosevelt feared when he authorized his Attorney General to conduct an extensive study (ten years) to install rights protections into the administrative procedures (APA) that the VA has since usurped.
In this Vietnam veteran's opinion, the District Court should have jurisdiction in the Veterans' suit against the VA, because the complaint is not about veterans' entitlements, but is about an agency of the government denying the Constitutional Rights of US citizens.
Americans damaged and disabled by way of service to our country are entitled to Equal Protection, Due Process and Just Compensation. I would contend that Just Compensation is not a budget item. That fact that the White House and the appointed VA Secretary impose a budge upon disabled veterans' compensation through the VA is proof enough that the VA violates veterans' rights.
Question
allan
Feds Ask Judge to Reject Suit Over Treatment of Combat Veterans
I find after reading this again, I must comment on some of these issues discussed below. Kelley
My Opinion - like all of us has one.
I found it strange that Judge Conti suggested that if Veterans have a problem with “their legal system” and rights they address it with Congress or Veterans Affairs. When has anyone heard the congress step up and speak about Veterans Rights? They will go on CSPAN on the floor of the senate and the house and speak for days and days about the rights of terrorists and possible torture of terrorist, not one word about the treatment of Veterans.
They can talk about water boarding, which I guess in some circles is considered torture. Yet, when our own government uses its Veterans in biological chemical warfare (WMD) testing for over a decade creating a lifetime of misery or death this seemingly is acceptable to our elected officials and to our Executive Branch and the Commander in Chief with this legal system set aside for one segment of society.
Since when does the Judiciary allow Congress and the Executive Branch to take over legal justice and fairness? When did the separation of powers guaranteed by our constitution that so many in that segment of society died in protecting go away for those men and women. When and what segment of society is next for congressional and executive branch collusion while the judiciary sits with their pompous hands folded saying – not our problem.
As you recall, recently congress tried to take the asbestos victims and put them in this category of Executive Branch/Congressional collusion. Thankfully, enough in congress had the foresight to see how wrongful that would be. Moreover, it is wrong for Veterans and their widows to have to face this same cooked up government collusion with no guarantee of justice or fairness. Facing chemical company, Department of Defense, and Veterans Affairs lies that because of this cooked up system cannot be challenged.
Judge Conti said that in 1988, Congress created a system of reviewing veterans' claims and it can't be second-guessed by regular courts. How unconstitutional is that?
Now why did congress and the executive branch cook up such a biased legal system in 1988?
Vietnam Veterans and hoards of Herbicide claims; that is the why. Reagan/Bush had decided after the long protracted government lying fight with Veterans they did not want the financial responsibility of the mistakes of other administrations. Therefore, the system we have now was cooked up to at least delay, minimize, and to have a yearly undated budget on the award of such compensations in service connection, disability, and death.
HR 101-672 released in 1991 by congress identifies that the Reagan/Bush White House did indeed interfere with the CDC studies. (HR 101-672 “The Agent Orange cover-up: a case of flawed science and political manipulation.”) Still nothing was done or is being done to rectify this crime. Reagan and Bush, two from the “Greatest Generation,” deliberately caused the needless deaths and suffering of Vietnam veterans and our families. Moreover, it continues to this day in Vietnam Veterans; Gulf War Veterans; and Biological Chemical Warfare Testing Veterans and apparently the new Veterans.
The only reason that the Secretary of the VA even gave (non-Hodgkin’s) to the veterans was because of the leak that the Reagan/Bush administration had directed that they did not want to support the veterans in the toxic chemical issue. In other words, they tossed a bone to the veterans because they got caught. This “bone” was 22 years too late for many veterans, and their families. I am not aware of any attempt on the part of the VA to notify the families of deceased veterans of this changed ruling concerning this disease that might allow their widows to claim pensions.
Now you know how the government paid for destroying Russia by denying the billions of dollars of damages that were done to our Veterans. No different than the Veterans pay decreases paid for many of the social programs to get us out of the depression years.
In other words, a Vietnam Veterans VA Hamster Wheel, as it is known, was created along with a Vietnam Veterans Lottery System. Remember it was not until 1990-1991 that the first mortality disorder was finally admitted to by Veterans Affairs controlled by the Executive Branch.
On December 4, 1950, the United States Supreme Court engaged in the most devastating unconstitutional act in our Nation’s history by creating judicial-legislation known as the Feres Doctrine. Since that day, all American service members, veterans and their families have been stripped of, without their knowledge or consent, their inalienable Constitutional rights to petition our government for redress of grievances arising “incident to service” in our military. This has resulted in a long-train of human, constitutional, and systemic intentional abuses. It is argued that if the Feres Doctrine were abolished the federal laws on the books to remedy fraud, waste, abuse or dangers to the public health and welfare would be enforced, thus compelling the Government to prosecute rather than defend crimes.
Was the Feres Doctrine a cold-calculated atrocity? “Absolute power corrupts absolutely.” The Feres Doctrine and its blanket grant of “sovereign immunity” and the human and constitutional rights abuses dismissed by our Government to include “WMD’s” is “treachery and treason.” How can it not be declared treachery and treason for federal employees in our Government to injure and kill its own citizens and be afforded a legal “damage control tool” to cover up these illegal acts?
Now of course we older Veterans now understand this. However, if our judiciary system is going to allow this to happen then at least they should mandate that DoD and Veterans Affairs inform America’s perspective sons and daughters that are considering a military career that the constitution, even after discharge, no longer applies to them. Lets see if we have any takers, once they know the real facts that our courts systems will not look after them and they will be subject to congressional/executive branch justice departments.
Everyone understands the separate UCMJ and why it is needed while in the military.
Once out from under the UCMJ, the “rights of all citizens” should be reinstated to the former military personnel - no different than the convicted criminal or the terrorist who now has more rights than the former soldier.
Justice Scalia wrote:
“Feres was wrongly decided and heartily deserves the widespread, almost universal criticism it has received.” Furthermore, "Congress's inaction regarding this doctrine and its doing little, if anything in the way of modifying it to prevent Constitutional claims is clearly unjust and irrational. Again, allowing such power to military leaders can and does result in abuse therefore, where are the checks and balances on the military."
Maybe someone should ask Judge Conti, which segments of society, is the Judiciary Branch going to turn over to the congress/executive branch justice and legal system next.
Moreover if so, when will it be that the Judiciary is out of the business of justice and fairness IAW with the constitution and constitutional law?
Maybe Judges should be included in this new fair and just system so that when they are harmed or their children are harmed they to can join in the fight for some kind of real justice and fairness from the congress/executive branch where they make up their own rules of evidence and what constitutes evidence.
Does anyone know of any segment of society that would or will put up with being thrown out of the constitutional justice system.
That would be front page news on any major paper and media broadcast. When it comes to our disposable government obsolete Veterans - there is not even a peep.
Kelley
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would add one of our I Corps Khe Sanh Marines suggestion is to contact a pro bono attorney similar to social security and I have heard some good reports back on these.
As I was told you can contact one of the following and if they think it has merit then they can assign you to the nearest participating attorney.
Trying to fight the VA as Congressman Filner suggested is worse than the disorder or disease.
A vet should not have to fight for justice.
Brian D. Robertson
Veterans Consortium Pro Bono Program
701 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. #131
Washington, DC 20004
(202) 628-8164 Ofc.
(202) 628-8169 Fax.
E-Mail: BrianR@vetsprobono.org
Carol W. Scott
Veterans Consortium Pro Bono Program
701 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. #131
Washington, DC 20004
(202) 628-8164 Ofc.
(202) 628-8169 Fax.
E-Mail: carols@vetsprobono.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feds Ask Judge to Reject Suit Over Treatment of Combat Veterans
Bob Egelko
San Francisco Chronicle
Dec 17, 2007
December 15, 2007 - The government asked a San Francisco federal judge on Friday to dismiss a high-profile lawsuit challenging the system of treatment and benefits for returning combat veterans.
The government's lawyers argued that civil courts have no authority over the Department of Veterans Affairs' medical decisions or how it handles grievances and claims.
"If plaintiffs are not happy with the way the system is currently working, their remedy is to take it up with Congress" or with the veterans department, Justice Department attorney Daniel Bensing told U.S. District Judge Samuel Conti.
He said that in 1988, Congress created a system of reviewing veterans' claims and it can't be second-guessed by regular courts. It was the first hearing on the nationwide lawsuit that is being closely watched by veterans, their families, and advocacy groups.
The suit seeks a judicial finding that the VA's system of handling claims and appeals violates veterans' rights. The plaintiffs also want court orders requiring the department to provide immediate medical and psychological help to returning troops and to screen them for risk of stress disorders and suicide.
Gordon Erspamer, a lawyer for veterans' advocates, argued Friday that the system established under the 1988 law is rife with constitutional violations that federal courts are competent to judge. Wounded veterans, he said, are arbitrarily denied care and benefits, are forced to wait months for vital treatment and years for benefits, have no access to lawyers or potential witnesses, and have little recourse when their claims are rejected.
Under the current procedures, Erspamer said, the government "can deny health care to veterans coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan with impunity. ... If this court dismisses this case, there is no way that these claims will ever be adjudicated."
Conti, a World War II veteran and a judicial conservative during his 37 years on the bench, raised questions about the courts' authority over the dispute but did not say how he would rule on the government's dismissal motion.
The suit was filed in July by two organizations - Veterans for Common Sense and Veterans United for Truth - as a proposed class action on behalf of 320,000 to 800,000 veterans, or their survivors, claiming service-connected deaths and disabilities.
They focused on claims of post-traumatic stress disorder, increasingly common among returning troops. A Pentagon study group reported in June that about 84,000 veterans, more than one-third of those who sought care from the VA from 2002 through 2006, had been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress or another mental disorder.
The Pentagon group also found that the system was understaffed, prompting the VA to announce staffing increases in July. The suit said the department has a backlog of more than 600,000 disability claims.
Veterans' advocates say the VA pressures stressed-out soldiers to acknowledge pre-existing "personality disorders" that gain them a speedy discharge while forfeiting future disability benefits. Erspamer said improper delays and denials of treatment and benefits have contributed to an "epidemic of suicides."
E-mail Bob Egelko at begelko@sfchronicle.com.
http://www.VeteransforCommonSense.org/ArticleID/8972
My opinion:
I would like to ask Judge Conti to review veterans' claims by comparing the VA's denial documentation to the evidence and information that the veterans have actually submitted. We (veterans) can easily show examples of the VA discounting significant medical evidence, asserting it's own conjecture as evidence and intentionally misinterpreting veterans' claims and statements. The VA even ignores the medical opinions of its own VA doctors.
The VA quasi-judicial process does not respect constitutional parameters. While it may be a rhetorical due process of regulations, it is obviously not the Due Process of Law that criminals and other US citizens take for granted.
The VA's adjudication system, including the CAVC, applies regulations and rulings that contradict laws. A review of the laws enacted for veterans-- comparing the original texts and intents as they were when passed by Congress to the federal regulations resulting from the VA's "implementation" of the law-- would plainly show that the VA has reversed, disabled and contradicted every law made to extend justice to veterans and improve the veteran's lot.
The VA has become the dictatorial "fourth branch of government" that President Roosevelt feared when he authorized his Attorney General to conduct an extensive study (ten years) to install rights protections into the administrative procedures (APA) that the VA has since usurped.
In this Vietnam veteran's opinion, the District Court should have jurisdiction in the Veterans' suit against the VA, because the complaint is not about veterans' entitlements, but is about an agency of the government denying the Constitutional Rights of US citizens.
Americans damaged and disabled by way of service to our country are entitled to Equal Protection, Due Process and Just Compensation. I would contend that Just Compensation is not a budget item. That fact that the White House and the appointed VA Secretary impose a budge upon disabled veterans' compensation through the VA is proof enough that the VA violates veterans' rights.
Norm Cegelnik
http://www.2ndbattalion94thartillery.com/Chas/rejectsuit.htm
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