When Do They Take Your Money?

[free_spirit_etc]

I posted here quite some time ago about the VA taking money back out of my bank account for my husband's final check. I thought they had taken it. But they still haven't.

They placed a HOLD of the funds on my account (or probably more appropriately, they tried to place a hold on our joint account - and since that was closed the BANK placed a hold on MY account) - but they still haven't taken the money.

The hold was placed May 20, 2007. The hold is still there - and the bank says it will stay there until the VA either takes the money or releases the hold.

It seems odd that they would hold the money so long without taking it.

And it also aggravates me that they can keep an eternal hold on my money.

I wish they would either take it or give it back.

Every time I check my account balance I am reminded that I have money that the VA won't let me spend and there isn't much I can do about it.

Free

[recruiterrick]

va has a department called debt management that reclaims money, i believe.

i think i have the number, if you want it

[spike]

If you are inquiring about an outstanding debt owed to the VA:

U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs

Debt Management Center

P.O. Box 11930

St. Paul, MN 55111

(800) 827-0648

(612) 970-5688 (fax)

dmc.ops@va.gov

there you go.

[free_spirit_etc]

Thanks Rick and Spike.

I think I might check it out with the email address. I seem to get further when people have to respond in writing (and you have written validation of what you asked).

I haven't had much luck with what people tell me on the phone.

Free

If you are inquiring about an outstanding debt owed to the VA:

U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs

Debt Management Center

P.O. Box 11930

St. Paul, MN 55111

(800) 827-0648

(612) 970-5688 (fax)

dmc.ops@va.gov

there you go.

[Philip Rogers]

Free - the attaching of your non-joint account sounds like an error on the banks part. The VA has no right to attach your "individual" account. You are not the claimant/payee. Once the direct deposit account was closed the VA needed to go after the estate. The bank made the error. I'd first contact the bank and see if they'd correct their error willingly and if not I'd file a complaint with state attorney general's office, banking division. jmo

pr

[free_spirit_etc]

Phil,

I questioned that. And specifically questioned how they could attach my account without even so much as notifying me. From what I could find in the laws under the electronic funds transfer act - the bank has the right to notify the VA of the name and address of whomever else had access to the funds...so the VA could pursue them. But the credit union informs me that since I was on the joint account with him - ANY account I have can be attached.

You might have a valid point there. In looking at the Electronic Funds Transfer Act -- it is the BANK that is liable for accepting the funds and not returning them after his death.

For them to limit their liability they must:

(2) Certify the date the RDFI first had actual or constructive knowledge of the death or legal incapacity of the recipient or death of the beneficiary, regardless of how and where such information was obtained;

(3)(i) In cases involving the reclamation of Social Security Federal Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance benefit payments, or benefit payments certified by the Railroad Retirement Board or the Department of Veterans' Affairs, provide the name and last known address of the following person(s):

(A) The recipient and any co-owner(s) of the recipient's account;

(B) All other person(s) authorized to withdraw funds from the recipient's account; and

© All person(s) who withdrew funds from the recipient's account after the death or legal incapacity of the recipient or death of the beneficiary.

(ii) If persons are not identified for any of these subcategories, the RDFI must certify that no such information is available and why no such information is available; and

(4) Fully and accurately complete all certifications on the notice of reclamation and comply with the requirements of this part.

Once again -- that only authorizes them to inform the VA of how to get ahold of me - not to take the funds from MY account.

And they are not REQUIRED to notify them - they only have to to limit THEIR OWN liability for accepting funds and not returning them after they had knowledge of someone's death.

I need to dig out my account agreement with the credit union and see what it says - but they say they have the right to attach any account of a joint account holder.

I did email the Veteran's Debt Management Center and ask them either to go ahead and withdraw the money or release their hold on it.

The woman I talked to at the bank said she was forwarding my letter to her surpervisors to see if they can change their policies. However, I wonder about their policies because I requested an explanation from them in writing - and only got verbal ones.

I have also learned the hard way that no one wants to go after Estate's. There is too much risk involving the Estate not having the funds to pay. So they try to collect outside of probate.

Before my husband died - I assumed that upon someone's death - people filed their claim against the Estate and claims were paid from the Estate funds in the order of priority.

OMG! Apparently the first thing creditors do is check out the potential for collecting from the Estate. If the Estate doesn't look like it will have enough to pay the claims -- they start immediately trying to get theirs, get thirs first, and get theirs now.

I sent the credit card company a claim form - and also asked them to remove the fraudulent charges they let be placed on my husband's account for TWO MONTHS after his death because they kept refusing to close his account because they kept saying they had no proof of his death --though I kept mailing it and faxing it to them. The credit card company sent the account to a collection agency. I told them to file a claim with the Estate. They said if they did that they would have to call the attorney repeatedly until the account was paid - and run up my legal fees. They said I could only avoid them running up my legal fees by paying $4800 immediately or firing my attorney and not being represented.

I sent them a letter and called them on their threat of trying to collect outside of probate by threatening to subject myself or the Estate to uneccessary legal fees - and told them they were in violation of the Fair Debt Collection Act.

The debt was $6,200 when my husband died. The collection agency said it was $6,500 and tried to collect $4800. Now they say the debt was $6,800 and they want $5200 to settle.

I have also heard from people that they might not even claim against the Estate. Because if they claim against the Estate and the Estate doesn't have enough funds - their claim will be dismissed (and they will have to pay their attorney if they DO collect). So often, if they have already determined the Estate may not have the funds - they won't claim against the Estate - but will try to come after the spouse / family AFTER the end of probate.

Legally, they can't make the spouse pay. But they would rather bully the spouse into paying by making them think they HAVE to by telling them they are liable because they inherited the Estate - than to have their claim dismissed in Probate. They collect more money that way than they do by following the law.

It is absolutely HORRID the way some people do business.

All the secrets the websites on Probate don't tell you - and your attorney doesn't tell you (because then he won't get paid for straightening out all the messes that could have been avoided).

Hopefully one day I can get things squared away and have some time to grieve my husband without having to feel like someone is going to take advantage of me if I let my guard down for two minutes.

Free

Free - the attaching of your non-joint account sounds like an error on the banks part. The VA has no right to attach your "individual" account. You are not the claimant/payee. Once the direct deposit account was closed the VA needed to go after the estate. The bank made the error. I'd first contact the bank and see if they'd correct their error willingly and if not I'd file a complaint with state attorney general's office, banking division. jmo

pr

[free_spirit_etc]

Hey! Here is another part of the law. It says the bank had to NOTIFY me by mail of the reclamation. This is what I questioned most. How in the heck can you place a hold on MY money and not even TELL me??? (I happened to notice I didn't have as much funds available as are in the account - and had to call - and still it took awhile before anyone could tell me what was going on).

The bank informed me they don't HAVE to notify people for reclamation by the GOVERNMENT. The assumption being that the account owner knew full well they owed the government money long before the government tried to snatch it.

But it looks like the law says different..

§ 210.12 RDFI's rights of recovery.

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(a) Matters between the RDFI and its customer. This subpart does not authorize or direct an RDFI to debit or otherwise affect the account of a recipient. Nothing in this subpart shall be construed to affect the right an RDFI has under state law or the RDFI's contract with a recipient to recover any amount from the recipient's account.

(B) Liability unaffected. The liability of the RDFI under this subpart is not affected by actions taken by the RDFI to recover any portion of the outstanding total from any party.

§ 210.13 Notice to account owners.

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Provision of notice by RDFI. Upon receipt by an RDFI of a notice of reclamation, the RDFI immediately shall mail to the last known address of the account owner(s) or otherwise provide to the account owner(s) a copy of any notice required by the Service to be provided to account owners as specified in the Green Book. Proof that this notice was sent may be required by the Service.