The Va And Navy Ao Claims

[Chuck75]

Ran across this while doing some research

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Date: July 23, 1997 VAOPGCPREC 27-97

From: General Counsel (022)

Subj: Service in the Republic of Vietnam for Purposes of Defini-

tion of Vietnam Era--38 U.S.C. § 101(29)(A)

To: Director, Compensation and Pension Service (213A)

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HELD:

Service on a deep-water naval vessel in waters off the shore of the Republic of Vietnam does not constitute service in the Republic of Vietnam for purposes of 38 U.S.C.

§ 101(29)(A), as added by section 505 of the Veterans’ Bene-fits Improvements Act of 1996, which provides that the term “Vietnam era” means the period beginning on February 28, 1961, and ending on May 7, 1975, in the case of a veteran who served in the Republic of Vietnam during that period.

Mary Lou Keener

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Since this VA legal stance does not mention operation of navy ships in the rivers, inshore costal waters, and river deltas, it does not apply in cases when amphibious LSTs and LSMRs and other navy ships were operated inside of Vietnam in the costal waters, rivers, and river deltas. This operation is a matter of easily verified record. On the other hand, "proof" to the VA of "feet on the ground" by individual navy veterans can be very difficult, due to the lack of available records.

Yet it is the basis for the VA requiring that Navy veterans prove "Feet on the Ground" in Vietnam.

Comments?

[Vike17]

Hasn't there been a number of "Brown water" navy veterans that were awarded service-connection for AO and their presumptive conditions!?!?!?!?!

Vike `17

[Chuck75]

There are "brown water" and "brown water" Navy Veterans. You have ships that were an integral part of a "brown water" command located in Vietnam, and ships attached in some way or associated with them. In addition you have vessels such as LSTs and LSMRs that hauled cargo and troops around for the "river rats" (Brown water command officially the Mobile Riverene Force) in the rivers and delta. The LSMRs provided fire support in shore and in the rivers and delta areas. These fire support ships generally rearmed at Cam Rahn Bay on almost a weekly basis. The LSTs also acted as home for the boat crew "river rats" and for the 9th Army troops.

I was able to prove "feet on the ground" because I had medical records showing treatment in a hospital located in Vietnam. Many other crew members of these ships are not so lucky.

The LSTs and LSMRs are shallow draft ships designed for operation in costal waters, and able to transit (With some difficulty) across the ocean. They have poor sea keeping ability, and roll much more than a vessel designed for continous deep water operation.

Many of these ships spent extended amounts of time actually IN Vietnam, yet the VA is treating the veterans as if they and the ships were off shore only, and not having Vietnam service for AO exposure. I was on the ground many times in Vung Tau, Danang, Dong Tam, Cam Rahn, and even once in Cau Vet. Because of the way the navy kept records, and the accessability to them, it can be impossible to prove (on an individual basis) that you were IN Vietnam, let alone feet on the ground. Some of these ships were actually sprayed directly with AO (by accident) when in the rivers and the delta areas. In the case of the LSTs, many were on the ground as a ship, since they were often loaded and unloaded by running the bow aground, opening bow doors, and dropping a ramp directly on the sand or ground.

One of the ships I served on (an LST) was mined when it was up a river, with the resulting loss of life being the largest navy loss of life in a single incident in the Vietnam war. Had I served the normal tour on the ship, I likely would have been among the casualties. I had been transferred some months earlier to fill a soon to be open critical skill on another ship.

The number of navy veterans involved with these ships is in the several thousands.

Each ship carried a crew of about 100 to 130. The total number of ships involved seems to be between 25 and 30, with 40 or 50 possible if you include deep water ships that were operated occasionally in the shipping channels to and from Saigon. Even one (or more) of the navy heavy cruisers was operated "in shore" in the Da Nang Bay to provide fire support in 1967.

Hasn't there been a number of "Brown water" navy veterans that were awarded service-connection for AO and their presumptive conditions!?!?!?!?!

Vike `17

[Stretch]

I wonder if you have to have boots on the ground to handle AO. How did AO get to Viet Nam? Was AO manufactured in Viet Nam? Could the ground and chemicals visit other places via jets, boats, helicopters, and vehicles which must be cleaned by hand?

Is the VA following DoD policy in respect to AO? Is the VA following DoD policy a conflict of interest concerning AO? What DoD General made this law? Who is representing the Veteran in this matter?

If a Veteran had only boots on the ground, how does he know what it was to handle AO on jets, ships, helicopters, and other vehicles? Is a veteran taking the word of the DoD and/or VA with regard to something that he might not know about? Are AO, Sarin, VX, Soman, Tabun, all nerve gasses? Did Australia store these nerve gasses, only now becoming aware that it is buried in their country?

Just questions. No disrespect intended. I just do not know the answers to these questions.

Edited August 5, 2006 by Stretch

[Guest allanopie]

How are Navy personnel who are repeatedly exposed to enviromental Toxins, during their ocupational duties of the day, narrowed down to blue or brown water during the Vietnam war? or any war for that matter?

As far as Toxic exposures go, the Navy "has boots on the ground", whenever they step on ship. The Airforce is the same with their equipment.

Those expermental vaccines they shot us up with? were they used on Brown water Navy, or the Blue water Navy vets?

[Berta]

Vike- you are right- Brown Water as well as Blue vets have had their AO claims resolved successfully.

Also a Thailand vet (think it was Thailand or Guam) got a BVA AO claim granted-

and I believe an Okinawa vet is on Remand- have to check this out-

I will see if I saved that claim but I did post it here at hadit.

Any Laurie Lilly' dad- dont know if you all remember this claim-

It looked pretty shaking- he was Blue Water vet- but somehow- many here who helped her remember-

that was en ENORMOUS retro check he got.

I sent her sea maps (I think a CIA Map too) focuesed on the coast of Vietnam that showed he was in what could be considered contingent , territorial waters-as I recall we argued that he was exposed to contaminated vets that came aboard the ship, they used sea water to wash the clothes aboard the ship- the weather patterns certainly moved sprayed contaminated air over the South China Sea, (I think he was Dixie Station 7th Fleet?) it was quite a bit of work some here helped her with on this-

He got his award!

If a veteran can prove exposure to AO- and there are numerous ways of exposure-

(the Thailand vet handled it when it was transported)

then the VA will service connect.-Bonafide proof needed however.

If a vet-no foot on ground- has some potential exposure to AO,and a presumptive AO condition, then a good IMO from an Medical Environmental Specialist could also make the claim succeed.

Brown Water has been a big topiv here in the past at hadit - there should be much info under the search button.

Any veteran who can prove exposure-regardless of where -to AO and has a presumptive AO disability should pursue their claim relentlessly.

Found it! http://www.va.gov/vetapp04/files2/0418252.txt

AO Thailand Granted------

Also- for one Blue Water vet I have with an AO claim pending- I found that his ship had docked in Danang- maybe a year prior to him getting on it-he didnt get on it in Vietnam

We used this to argue that the ship had been contaminated with prior exposure.

I found the info that it had been docked at Danang in searching BVA decisions and it was in another vet's AO claim at the board.

You might have to be creative and really think about AO. And read all you can on it- there is a lot of info out there.

Some vets have sent me pictures of themselves taken while leaning on the barrels. The barrels looked a certain way-easy to know that it was AO.

However, unless the picture has identifying markers of the Camp or base the VA probably will not consider this as actual exposure if the vet did not serve in Vietnam.

[mssoup1]

At the moment, my husband does not have any health problems that the VA recognizes as being related to AO. But, my question is, if , God forbid, he was to develop a health problem that is related, would he be able to successfully file a claim if he served in the Navy and was on the Tango boats. These were the boats that moved at a snails pace up and down the small rivers of Vietnam. He stated that he was on some rivers so small that you could almost reach out and touch the sides of the river and transported a lot of the Army guys. Also, he stated that most of the time when they went up and down the rivers, all vegetation on both sides of the rivers were totally brown and dead. He was physically in these rivers many times and also jumped in them more than once in order to take a bath. AO was definitely being sprayed in these areas all of the time. He has some kind of a map that I saw several times which supposedly shows the areas within

Vietnam that were sprayed. Some other veteran sent it to him.

He does have a lot of health issues, including chronic skin and eye problems. He has had these problems ever since he was discharged and they have only gotten worse over time. In fact, I think what ever is causing his problems is in his blood or cells and has spread. I also think that this is a result of AO, but you will never convince any doctor of this. They have called his problem everything they can think of that relates to dermatology, but if you mention AO, they get on the defensive real fast.

He is currently service connected for his skin and eye conditions, but only because it shows in his SMR's of constant sick bay calls due to problems with his skin and continued care within one year of being discharged. But again, no connection to AO.

mssoup1