P&t Pernanent & Total Disability

[Charleese]

Hi,

I know that P&T stands for Permanent & Total Disability, but what does this really mean? Do you have to be rated at 100% to get P&T? Do you have to be unemploye to get P&T? Are there certain injuries that you have to have to get P&T. If your 100% do you have to request P&T or do they automatically give it to you?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

[calnight]

IF YOU ARE P&T FOR PTSD YOU BETTER KEEP UP ON YOUR TREATMENT. KEEP GETTING YOUR MEDS EVEN IF YOU DONT TAKE THEM. KEEP SEEING YOUR DOC. THE VA IS GOING TO LOOK TO CUT MONEY SOMEWERE. AND PTSD IS THE EASIEST TO PURSUE SO IF ONE DAY THEY DO A REVIEW AND THEY SEE YOU ARE NOT GETTING TREATMENT OR HAVE NOT SEEN A DOCTOR FOR AWHILE I CAN BET THEY WILL BE CALLING YOU BACK IN FOR A REVIEW. SEE YOUR DOC ALEAST ONCE EVERY 3 MONTHS AND KEEP UP ON YOUR MEDS. AND KEEP COPYS AND GET COPYS EVERY TIME YOU SEE YOUR SHRINK. I AGREE THAT SEEING MY SHRINK DOES NOTHING TO HELP MY PTSD BUT THE VA DOES NOT CARE WHAT I THINK. ALSO IF YOU ARE ON SSD OR SSI YOU WILL HAVE A REVIEW OF YOUR CASE AND YOU BETTER HAVE SOME DOCTOR PROGESS NOTES. DONT EVER THINK JUST BECUASE YOU HAVE P&T THEY ARE NEVER GOING TO CALL YOU BACK. YOU BETTER BE READY AND HAVE ALL YOUR DUCKS IN LINE. YOU FOUGHT HARD TO WIN YOUR CLAIM NOW YOU MUST FIGHT TO KEEP IT. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, TRUST THE VA TO DO THE RIGHT THING. BE PREPARED.

[Jay Johnson]

Jay,

Please post the regulation and where in the regulation you quoting when you state that the VA ordering a C&P exam after you're rated P&T is illegal. Thanks.

Thanks,

ts

Says so in 3.327 and it has be said numerous times by the BVA, CAVC and was recently said to congress by the VA's top brass. On top of that, it just doesn't make ANY sense. Perhaps one can argue that the VA has been too liberal with the designation, but that should mean they should become more strict about handing it out; not going around the law because they think they screwed up.

Permanent means permanent...it doesn't mean kinda permanent or sorta permanent. If you don't offer them ANY reason to look at your file (IE - some form of new and material evidence) they have NO right to reopen your claim. But, they've gotten away with it in the past and SOs don't seem to object to it when they do....what I hear most is, "well, what do you have to hide", which completely misses the point.

Calnight,

One can argue that the medical record you've compiled is what can lead to them reopening your P&T case. If you have ONE good day, the RO can use that as justification for "new and material evidence" regardless of the overall disability picture....it is a way out of the regulations that they can use to protect themselves in ordering a C&P.

If you are seeing a civilian psychiatrist and they try to order a C&P, first fight the appointment, then send in an eval from your civilian doc if you're pressed. The laws are VERY clear on lowering 100% and P&T cases.....they need a lot of evidence to get away with it (not saying they wont try though).

Edited May 24, 2007 by Jay Johnson

[tdak]

I am not one to get in the middle of things, but I read and reread the reg for reexaminiations. Here it is:

§3.327 Reexaminations.

(a) General. Reexaminations, including periods of hospital observation, will be requested whenever VA determines there is a need to verify either the continued existence or the current severity of a disability. Generally, reexaminations will be required if it is likely that a disability has improved, or if evidence indicates there has been a material change in a disability or that the current rating may be incorrect. Individuals for whom reexaminations have been authorized and scheduled are required to report for such reexaminations. Paragraphs (b) and © of this section provide general guidelines for requesting reexaminations, but shall not be construed as limiting VA’s authority to request reexaminations, or periods of hospital observation, at any time in order to ensure that a disability is accurately rated. (Authority: 38 U.S.C. 501(a))

(b) Compensation cases:

(1) Scheduling reexaminations. Assignment of a prestabilization rating requires reexamination within the second 6 months period following separation from service. Following initial Department of Veterans Affairs examination, or any scheduled future or other examination, reexamination, if in order, will be scheduled within not less than 2 years nor more than 5 years within the judgment of the rating board, unless another time period is elsewhere specified.

(2) No periodic future examinations will be requested. In service-connected cases, no periodic reexamination will be scheduled:

(i) When the disability is established as static;

(ii) When the findings and symptoms are shown by examinations scheduled in paragraph (b)(2)(i) of this section or other examinations and hospital reports to have persisted without material improvement for a period of 5 years or more;

(iii) Where the disability from disease is permanent in character and of such nature that there is no likelihood of improvement;

(iv) In cases of veterans over 55 years of age, except under unusual circumstances;

(v) When the rating is a prescribed scheduled minimum rating; or

(vi) Where a combined disability evaluation would not be affected if the future examination should result in reduced evaluation for one or more conditions.

I can see where Jay is correct, I would think permanent is permanent, but at the same time the VA covers their own hides by adding this statement in the beginning of the reg. "but shall not be construed as limiting VA’s authority to request reexaminations, or periods of hospital observation, at any time in order to ensure that a disability is accurately rated."

at least thats the way I understand it. It's like a job description in a way where they state the job requirements, but add the words "but not limited to" just in case they have you do something outside of your normal requirements.

[calnight]

I DONT CARE WHAT THE REGS SAY THE VA DOES WHAT THEY WANT AND IS ALWAYS BENDING THERE RULES. IT IS A CONSTANT BATTLE AND SOME THINK JUST BECUASE YOU GOT P&T THAT THE VA IS NEVER GOING TO BOTHER YOU AGIAN. WAKE UP. THE COST OF VA COMP IS SKY ROCKETING AND MAYBE NOT TODAY BUT IN THE FUTURE THE GOVERMENT IS GOING TO WANT TO LOOK AND SEE IF THE PEOPLE RECIEVING BENIFITS TRULY DESERVE THEM. AND WHEN SOCIAL SECRITY HITS ROCK BOTTOM I CAN BET THE FOCUS WILL TURN TO VA COMP. SO ALL I AM SAYING IS IS BE PREPARED AND I WOULD RATHER HAVE CURRENT DOC NOTES THEN NONE AT ALL. AND IF YOU HAVE NO PROGRESS REPORTS FROM YOUR SHRINK I WILL BET THAT YOU WILL LOOSE YOUR SSD OR SSI. ( I AM TALKING ABOUT US WITH MENTALL DISORDERS )I CAN NOT SPEAK ABOUT PHYSICAL DISORDERS. PEOPLE WITH MENTALL DISORDERS IN SOME EYES ARE NOT DISABLED. I HAVE STORY TO TELL,

THIS HAPPENED TODAY, I LIVE IN CALIFORNIA AND IN CALIFORNIA IF YOU ARE 100% OR I.U. ONE OF THE BENIFITS IS YOU GET FREE CAR REGISTRATION. ( IT IS EXPENSIVE IN CALI EVERTHYTHING IS.) SO I TAKE MY AWARD LETTER TO THE DMV. AND I HAVE MY 2 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER WITH ME. I GIVE IT TO DMV CLERK AND SAY I WOULD LIKE MY CAR REG WAIVED. SHE LOOKS AT THE PAPERWORK AND SAYS GET THIS, " YOU DONT LOOK DISABLED". IT WAS ON, I SAID " WHO ARE YOU ARE YOU A DOCTOR LET ME TALK TO A MANAGER." SHE SAYS, " I AM THE MANAGER" AND YOU HAVE TO PHYISICALLY DISABLED." I SAID BULLSHIT IT SAYS NOTHING IN THE REGS ABOUT MENTALL OR PHYSICALL. SO SHE SAYS NO AND IF IT WERENT FOR MY KID I WOULD HAVE HURT THAT LADY. I STARTED SHAKING AND HAD TO LEAVE FAST. I GUESS I FELT A LITTLE LIKE THE GUYS FROM NAM FELT WHEN THEY CAME HOME. THAT IS F@CK YOU JUST LEAVE WAS THE FEELING I GOT. I TOLD HER JUST BECUSE I CAN WALK AND HAVE MY ARMS DOES NOT MEAN THAT I AM NOT DISABLED. SO I CAME HOME AND CALLED MY STATE REP AND TOLD THEM WHAT HAPPENED AND THEY SAID TO FAX THE PAPER WORK TOP THEM AND THEY WOULD LOOK INTO IT. SO HAS SOON AS MY KID WAKES UP I WILL AND I WILL KEEP YOU POSTED ON WHAT HAPPENS. AND HAS FAR AS THE MANAGER I AM NOT DONE WITH HER. I CALLED DMV HEADQUTERS AND LAUNCHED A FORMEL COMPLAINT.

[Jay Johnson]

I can see where Jay is correct, I would think permanent is permanent, but at the same time the VA covers their own hides by adding this statement in the beginning of the reg. "but shall not be construed as limiting VA’s authority to request reexaminations, or periods of hospital observation, at any time in order to ensure that a disability is accurately rated."

at least thats the way I understand it. It's like a job description in a way where they state the job requirements, but add the words "but not limited to" just in case they have you do something outside of your normal requirements.

This is true and I think this is whythe VA is TRYING to get away with these P&T C&Ps, but that's not what the exemption is for. The VA can order someone who is P&T back for an exam if A) They get new and material evidence, or :( There is reason to believe the P&T rating falls under clear and unmistakeable error. It does not, however, give broad discretion to the RO to order a C&P whenever they feel like it, because that would be going against existing evidence and medical opinion (which stated that the condition is permanent in nature).

501(a) basically says that the VA has the authority to collect evidence needed to carry out VA law and establish benefits under said laws. It doesn't give the VA the right to supersede existing laws in order to go on a fishing expedition. If the VA has some evidence that puts the P&T into question then they have complete authority to look intothe matter, but fishing for a reason to lower someone goes against medical opinion and the raters to do not have authority to supersede medical doctrine and established opinions.

There's also other regs that blur into 3.327 like finality of decisions, which states that one RO cannot supersede another RO based on opinion, nor can one rater supersede another raters opinion because he/she feels the claim is too high (without CUE).

In short, veteran's ratings are more protected then we think and the regs are clearly on our side, but the SOs, and many veterans, let the VA trounce all over those regs without penalty, which is the true reason why so many vets have a horrible time dealing with the VA.

[Jay Johnson]

I DONT CARE WHAT THE REGS SAY THE VA DOES WHAT THEY WANT AND IS ALWAYS BENDING THERE RULES. IT IS A CONSTANT BATTLE AND SOME THINK JUST BECUASE YOU GOT P&T THAT THE VA IS NEVER GOING TO BOTHER YOU AGIAN. WAKE UP. THE COST OF VA COMP IS SKY ROCKETING AND MAYBE NOT TODAY BUT IN THE FUTURE THE GOVERMENT IS GOING TO WANT TO LOOK AND SEE IF THE PEOPLE RECIEVING BENIFITS TRULY DESERVE THEM. AND WHEN SOCIAL SECRITY HITS ROCK BOTTOM I CAN BET THE FOCUS WILL TURN TO VA COMP. SO ALL I AM SAYING IS IS BE PREPARED AND I WOULD RATHER HAVE CURRENT DOC NOTES THEN NONE AT ALL. AND IF YOU HAVE NO PROGRESS REPORTS FROM YOUR SHRINK I WILL BET THAT YOU WILL LOOSE YOUR SSD OR SSI. ( I AM TALKING ABOUT US WITH MENTALL DISORDERS )I CAN NOT SPEAK ABOUT PHYSICAL DISORDERS. PEOPLE WITH MENTALL DISORDERS IN SOME EYES ARE NOT DISABLED. I HAVE STORY TO TELL,

THIS HAPPENED TODAY, I LIVE IN CALIFORNIA AND IN CALIFORNIA IF YOU ARE 100% OR I.U. ONE OF THE BENIFITS IS YOU GET FREE CAR REGISTRATION. ( IT IS EXPENSIVE IN CALI EVERTHYTHING IS.) SO I TAKE MY AWARD LETTER TO THE DMV. AND I HAVE MY 2 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER WITH ME. I GIVE IT TO DMV CLERK AND SAY I WOULD LIKE MY CAR REG WAIVED. SHE LOOKS AT THE PAPERWORK AND SAYS GET THIS, " YOU DONT LOOK DISABLED". IT WAS ON, I SAID " WHO ARE YOU ARE YOU A DOCTOR LET ME TALK TO A MANAGER." SHE SAYS, " I AM THE MANAGER" AND YOU HAVE TO PHYISICALLY DISABLED." I SAID BULLSHIT IT SAYS NOTHING IN THE REGS ABOUT MENTALL OR PHYSICALL. SO SHE SAYS NO AND IF IT WERENT FOR MY KID I WOULD HAVE HURT THAT LADY. I STARTED SHAKING AND HAD TO LEAVE FAST. I GUESS I FELT A LITTLE LIKE THE GUYS FROM NAM FELT WHEN THEY CAME HOME. THAT IS F@CK YOU JUST LEAVE WAS THE FEELING I GOT. I TOLD HER JUST BECUSE I CAN WALK AND HAVE MY ARMS DOES NOT MEAN THAT I AM NOT DISABLED. SO I CAME HOME AND CALLED MY STATE REP AND TOLD THEM WHAT HAPPENED AND THEY SAID TO FAX THE PAPER WORK TOP THEM AND THEY WOULD LOOK INTO IT. SO HAS SOON AS MY KID WAKES UP I WILL AND I WILL KEEP YOU POSTED ON WHAT HAPPENS. AND HAS FAR AS THE MANAGER I AM NOT DONE WITH HER. I CALLED DMV HEADQUTERS AND LAUNCHED A FORMEL COMPLAINT.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the fact that PTSD vets need to continue documenting care (if only for meds), but where we differ is in where that care should come from. I have FAR more control over my wife's civilian psychiatrist than I would a VA psychiatrist and I don't have to worry about some small note stating that "the patient seems to be improved today" that the VA can take out of context and use against her. In essence, a civilian doctor gives US control over what the VA can and can't see AND it stops the RO from going on fishing expeditions whenever they feel like it based on some VA doctor's notes.

As for your car registration - In WA we were able to get vet tags by simply mailing off a copy of her DD214 to the state DMV's veteran's office. It was fairly simple and painless and we didn't even have to go into a DMV to get it (was done all by mail). Perhaps you should check the CA DMV website and see if there's a similar program.

Also, what the DMV did to you may fall under the American's With Disabilities Act and you could have a possible lawsuite on your hands....may be worth looking into.