Nhl And Ao Exposure In The Oral Arguments

[Stretch]

VA has admitted that sailors on ships off shore in Vietnam, during the Vietnam war, have a higher incidence of NHL than soldiers on the ground in Vietnam. VA says that that this Blue-Water disease was caused by Agent Orange exposure.

Then the VA says that only boots on the ground is used for presumption of exposure for AO.

This is a hint that Blue-Water Veterans were exposed to AO, but at the same time, these sailors could not have been exposed to AO, according to the New and Improved VA interpretation of Congressional Laws that were made many years ago.

Sounds clear as mud to me.

Want to listen to the hearing go to this link,

http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov:80/oralarguments/searchscript.asp

and put 2007-7037 into the search engine. Listen to the Very long oral argument of the VA and NLSVP in the Hass vs. Nicholson in Fed. Circuit court. November 7, 2007.

See how the VA lawyers can fast talk their way through flaws in its Federal Congressional Legislation.

[Berta]

I am listening to the Oral arguments right this minute-

Compelling!

NVLSP is doing great-

I just hope they dont narrow this all to only the 12 mile limit-

the judge is hard to read----

[Stretch]

NVLSP, I always get get the acronym mixed up when I write it.

Yes, the judge is hard to read, but he does ask the question several times of how NHL AO related disease can be greater in Navy Blue-Water Vietnam Vets than with Vietnam land "Boots on the ground troops".

He also ask how NHL can be AO related for Blue-Water Vets and that the other diseases can not be related for SC. This is where the VA lawyer tries to fast talk and dance around technical issues within the law displaying very little concern for Disabled Veterans involved in exposure of AO.

VA tries to dismiss the Aussie Blue-Water AO exposure studies when at the same time denying any studies of their own.

Sad part about this is that the Circuit Court may decide to allow the precedent to be settled by the Supreme Court. This delay would give the VA the time that it needs, to stall for legislation to catch up with their BS.

VA seems only concerned with technical attributes within the law, which are to deny Veterans assistance and Service Connection, and not with the VA's job of helping injured Disabled Veterans.

If Citizens, of the US, were to know this about the VA Denial Dance, then citizens would be able to challenge VA Purpose and Mission.

[Pete53]

Well the sad fact is that the Army exposed a lot of people including soldiers and civilians in many countries and places. I think I was exposed and I served in Germany.

[danang_1969]

I have not listened to any of the legal arguments on this subject. Tell me, have they got into the off shore ships evaporators making fresh drinking and showering water inside the forbidden 15 mile limit while of the shore line of Nam and in so doing making freshwater from contaminated salt water with most likely AO in it. Might explain the Blue Water disease study. Also most of ships where full of asbestos in the fire rooms and engine rooms that was used for insulating steam pipes and boilers fireboxes. This practice was done long before safety regulations were implemented by the Navy on occupational hazards in the workplace. I have a friend who has lung cancer who served aboard the Kitty Hawk. Doctor gave opinion this type tumor he has could only be caused by dioxin. He had half his lung removed and on oxygen 24/7. He stays in good spirits most of the time, he is 100%. We visit from time to time. The great thing about us visiting now is, if one us happen to run out of oxygen, the other one can loan him some until he gets back home to his machine. This is a different friend from the Marine who is on oxygen with DM2 I made the post on a day or so ago. All three of us went to high school together and all served in Nam in the late 60's. Coincidence you think we have very simular diseased conditions.

Danang_1969

[Berta]

Mike is right- the VA attorney danced around the issues-using 38 CFR to the VA benefit-

the other briefs and arguments that led up to this hearing are at the NVLSP web site-and they are all good arguments for BWNVs.

So there was plenty more to this case than just the 65 minute oral arguments-on Wednesday

The distillation process- as NVLSP's lawyer said- did NOT eliminate dioxin in the distilling process- it eliminated salt.

I thought it was interesting when the VA lawyer right at the end of the hearing poo-pooed the Australian study yet- as NVLSP pointed out- they (VA) had no study whatsoever to Rule Out that there was dioxin in the air or off shore waters of Vietnam.

Dioxin- a persistent organic pollutant- has a long shelf life, and is capable of traveling by air or water to destinations far beyond where it was sprayed.It bioaccumulates in the cells of animals such as the fish food chain that NVLSP mentioned.

It is because of AO that part of the ecological environment of Vietnam through water run-offs, compromised wells, and certainly- by the process of evaporation- lingered in and went even further from the spraying sites.

My concern is- even with a positive court decision- would that decision limit sailors as to their position -off shore-in mileage? Yet how could a limit in the off shore waters even be imposed?

Also the judge raised some good questions as to pilot exposure-the AO regs rule out high altitute flights over Vietnam but pilots often had to make on the ground pit stops to re-fuel so those are covered by "one foot on ground rule".When he said the A 10 -I am sure he meant the fixed wing with the Hayes dispenser. ? But not too sure yet-

The Blue Water Navy site will have the most updated info on this court hearing-as well as NVLSP.

It could take months or even hopefully- mere weeks to have a decision from the court.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Berta

[Stretch]

Berta,

You should listen to the Senate hearing for the BVA backlog for this year that I have posted. The NVLSP was at that hearing also, and Christine Cody (NVLSP) brought up BWV (Blue-Water Vets) as a class action suit problem relating to AO.

Christine Cody was in this Senate hearing at the same time the NVLSP was doing Oral Arguments for BWV at the Haas Circuit Court hearing 10/7/07.

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Judge assumed that Aircraft Carriers were 300 miles away from Vietnam. The Gulf of Tonkin is only 200 wide. We would have been parked in China if we were 300 miles away. We were close enough to see the shore line. The horizon is at 17 miles.

I have a typhoon in my Ships Logs. There were many monsoons and typhoons that brought the stuff into the Gulf of Tonkin waters. It will come up again and again. I washed, by hand, the chemicals off of and out of the intake ducts from our Squadron A7-E aircraft based aboard the USS Ranger. I also had several strange growths cut from my hands aboard ship and ashore as per my Service Medical Records.

I am next in line.

Picture of USS Ranger 1970 Vietnam taken from USS Rowan courtesy Tincan man. Whats that floating on the Water, could it be AO, JP-5, NSFO, or some other toxic chemical.