Personality Disorder,

[Guest Jim S.]

More than a few of us have been classified with personality disorder by the military or the VA Examiner. I have been wondering how they determine one with one and how do they guage it's severity, so that they could differentiate it from a mental disorder.

I found it hard to believe that I had a personality disorder, since it was never noted prior to enlistment, nor during my psychological tests at enlistment, nor the absence of anything saying I had it during service, nor was it noted on my re-enlistment physical, and nor was it noted during my three month hospitalization after my psychotic episode.

It's strange to note that my so called personality disorder was only noted by the VA Examiner and has not been noted anyware in my medical records since and not in any of the last two plus years, in which I have been under treatment for associated disorders to my psychotic episode, for which the VA continues to deny as nothing new or material to my personality disorder, Still further to fail to address the psychotic episode as a mental disorder.

I have had my ups and downs while in the service, but I was never repermanded or had Capt. Mast for anything. My regular evaluations are average to above average, I went from Seaman Apprentice to Hospitalman Third Class in the first half of my first enlistment and was selected one of two endividuals to attend a specialty school in my unit, I was also recommended for an additional specialty school and advancement upon completion to Hospitalman Second Class. Somehow I don't see this as a servicman with a personality disorder that was unfit for duty or the reason for my psychotic episode.

I know I'm rambling along, but I have run out of things to do for my claim, while the VA does their thing, but to wonder how the VA could consider such an opinion, taking into the consideration besides the ups and down in my limited career, that my superiors thought well enough of me to recommend my request for re-enlistment and pass the re-enlistment physical too and to recommed advancement to the next high rate upon completion of this advace school.

I just wish their is a way to tell where your claim is in the stack of all the other claims. Something that tells you are number two or three in a stack of a dozen, something besides we have your claim and nothing new to report.

AAAHHHHHH!!!!!

Jim S.

Edited October 4, 2005 by Jim S.

[jimlane1949]

More than a few of us have been classified with personality disorder by the military or the VA Examiner. I have been wondering how they determine one with one and how do they guage it's severity, so that they could differentiate it from a mental disorder.

I found it hard to believe that I had a personality disorder, since it was never noted prior to enlistment, nor during my psychological tests at enlistment, nor the absence of anything saying I had it during service, nor was it noted on my re-enlistment physical, and nor was it noted during my three month hospitalization after my psychotic episode.

It's strange to note that my so called personality disorder was only noted by the VA Examiner and has not been noted anyware in my medical records since and not in any of the last two plus years, in which I have been under treatment for associated disorders to my psychotic episode, for which the VA continues to deny as nothing new or material to my personality disorder, Still further to fail to address the psychotic episode as a mental disorder.

I have had my ups and downs while in the service, but I was never repermanded or had Capt. Mast for anything. My regular evaluations are average to above average, I went from Seaman Apprentice to Hospitalman Third Class in the first half of my first enlistment and was selected one of two endividuals to attend a specialty school in my unit, I was also recommended for an additional specialty school and advancement upon completion to Hospitalman Second Class. Somehow I don't see this as a servicman with a personality disorder that was unfit for duty or the reason for my psychotic episode.

I know I'm rambling along, but I have run out of things to do for my claim, while the VA does their thing, but to wonder how the VA could consider such an opinion, taking into the consideration besides the ups and down in my limited career, that my superiors thought well enough of me to recommend my request for re-enlistment and pass the re-enlistment physical too and to recommed advancement to the next high rate upon completion of this advace school.

I just wish their is a way to tell where your claim is in the stack of all the other claims. Something that tells you are number two or three in a stack of a dozen, something besides we have your claim and nothing new to report.

AAAHHHHHH!!!!!

Jim S.

Jim, I did some digging and have some information on Personality Disorder. A definition I found states Personality disorder is a set of traits that combine to negatively affect your life. and they have a wide range of causes and some are easier to treat than others. I will list ten traits and you can research them for what they mean

1. Paranoid

2..Schizoid

3. Schizotypal

4. Anti-Social

5. Borderline

6. Histrionic

7. Narcissitic

8. Avoident

9. Dependent

10. Obessive-Compulssive.

There are tests that are administered by either a pyschiatrist or a psychologist that attempt to identify neagative traits. A test is scored and if any neagative traits are identified, a person could conceivably be diagnosed with a personality disorder. Remember, it is critical that this type of testing be done by a licensed psychiatrist or psychologist. I hope this helps some because this type of a problem can be very difficult if someone places a label on you who are not qualified to do so.

Jim Lane

[john999]

When the VA sees an opportunity not to pay a vet with a emotional/mental disorder they diagnose you with a personality disorder. I think during the Vietnam era if you were not psychotic it was common for the VA and military to hang a personality disorder on the vet. The only way to fight that is to get medical evidence to refute the diagnosis. I think I was lucky because I filed for a claim within one of service, otherwise, I would have had a fight on my hands.

[Guest Jim S.]

I've read what all of you have said and pointed out. The first that continues to jump out at me, is that the VA Examiner used the same evidence in my records as the medical board used to come to their diagnosis. To my knowledge and going by what is present in my medical files, I was never given any such psych test by the VA Examiner, but I was tested during my hospital stay while in the service.

Wouldn't the VA Examiner have to rebutt the findings of those tests by the Navy Dr's/psychiatrist, in order for the VA to use the alternative diagnosis as fact? Since they didn't offer any new evidence to support their alternative diagnosis theory, It only seems right that they should have done so.

By the way, which catagory of personality disorder does an inadequate personality associated with inadequate educational experience fit into?

I had applied for benefits within one year of service, and I have been fighting the same VA insistance that nothing new or material to support a change in their decision of a personality disorder, even when I submitted in a later claim, that questioned the validity of the VA examiners diagnosis and in part supported my claim of a psychiatric disorder and most certainly a depression disorder since my episode in the service.

An error occured in how my claim was adjudicated and I hope my latest claim will finally bring this out into the open for someone to see. I honestly believe it is just a matter of time and whether I have to take it all the way to the COVA for it to been seen.

Jim S.

[Hoppy]

I've read what all of you have said and pointed out. The first that continues to jump out at me, is that the VA Examiner used the same evidence in my records as the medical board used to come to their diagnosis. To my knowledge and going by what is present in my medical files, I was never given any such psych test by the VA Examiner, but I was tested during my hospital stay while in the service.

Wouldn't the VA Examiner have to rebutt the findings of those tests by the Navy Dr's/psychiatrist, in order for the VA to use the alternative diagnosis as fact? Since they didn't offer any new evidence to support their alternative diagnosis theory, It only seems right that they should have done so.

By the way, which catagory of personality disorder does an inadequate personality associated with inadequate educational experience fit into?

I had applied for benefits within one year of service, and I have been fighting the same VA insistance that nothing new or material to support a change in their decision of a personality disorder, even when I submitted in a later claim, that questioned the validity of the VA examiners diagnosis and in part supported my claim of a psychiatric disorder and most certainly a depression disorder since my episode in the service.

An error occured in how my claim was adjudicated and I hope my latest claim will finally bring this out into the open for someone to see. I honestly believe it is just a matter of time and whether I have to take it all the way to the COVA for it to been seen.

Jim S.

Jim, I am responding to this post and another post this evening. I work on your questions quite a bit. You have good questions and I have always been of the opinion that the VA jammed you.

At the time of your diagnosis of personality disorder in 1970 the diagnosis was considered by many psychologists as having no objective basis. Thus when the DSM IV was published many changes were made in the criteria for the diagnosis. This I am paraphrasing from my readings in the DSM IV. I started studing psychology in 1970. I have read every DSM printed. I had 147 quarter units toward a BS at UCLA when I quit school in 1986.

Military psychologists and doctors threw around the diagnoais of personality disorder for the purpose of expalining behavior that was not main stream. These diagnosis were made after short 20 min. interviews. They did this specifically because it was not service connectable. My source on this is a long standing VA employee. As I said before there was another hadit member who worked for the VA who posted that the VA "Hated like anything to service connect veterans who were discharged for personality disorders or immiturity".

The rest of this post is some thing I wrote for another subject I am pasting it below.

Jim,

I agree that all of those things should have been done. It appears that your claim was denied as the result of the adjudicator interpreting the C&P exam as replacing the military diagnosis. I agree that the statement by the C&P examiner that he did not fully agree is ambiguous. The problem occurs that the decision was not appealed and became final. When you go to the VA does the computer show the claim as re-opened or is it the original 1972 claim date and shown as being closed?

At this time what do you do? I went through the same problem on one of my many claims. Submitting new and material evidence can reopen a claim. That is what I did and the claim was reopened. I am not sure what a denovo review is. If it part of the standard appeal process and your claim was not appealed then they would still require new and material evidence. As far ac CUE goes I am also not knowledgeable of CUES. I do recall that the failure to review medical reports available at the time of the decision can be a CUE. The failure to properly interpret the medial reports or to properly apply the law may be reason to appeal yet not sufficient to be a CUE. In your case I am of the opinion that replacing the in service diagnosis withy a personality disorder diagnosis was not proper. This is because it does not sound like the C&P examiner addressed the issue as to when the personality disorder first manifest symptoms. Although, personality disorders usually manifest symptoms prior to the age of 18, there are cases that do not manifest until later in life. Thus, the only way the adjudicator could have used the C&P examiners report to replace a diagnosis established in the military would be based on clear and convincing evidence. When a diagnosis is established in the military and a diagnosis of a condition that developed post service an assessment that the current symptoms are caused by the post service condition can only be used if the evidence is clear and convincing. It sound like the adjudicator used preponderance of evidence. That is the wrong evidentiary standard.

When you submit letters arguing that what they did was wrong on a closed claim may not get you any where. They are looking for medical evidence. Your opinion is not considered medical evidence. You do have a strong argument that at this time a new medical report either submitted by you or as the result of them scheduling a new C&P exam is in order. This is due to the fact that the DSM IV changed criteria justifying the use of personality disorders. Also the fact that the personality disorder could have been caused by the in service condition and subsequent discharge was not addressed by the C&P examiner. This is especially relevant because at the time of the original denial personality disorders were considered as being developmental. And lastly the symptoms you experienced in the military could have been symptoms of conditions that are known to develop over a long period of time.

When I was discharged in 1970 I was diagnosed with Chronic allergic condition, knee condition and personality disorder. Upon discharge I went to the VA and submitted a request to service connect the knee condition and the allergic condition. Without even requesting that the personality disorders be considered the VA adjudicated a claim for the personality disorders and denied it, citing that personality disorders were considered developmental.

Currently, many personality disorders are considered to be secondary to other psychiatric conditions. Thus the medical field has changed their perception of the condition and new medical investigation is justified. There was also the perception as far back as the 60’s the giving people a medical discharge for a psychiatric condition could spawn ongoing adjustment conditions for the veteran post service. As a result people with personality disorders were give administrative discharges rather than medical discharges. There was a bupers instruction or department of defense code justifying the administrative discharges.

I think it is very important for your case to plead your case with a psychologist or a psychiatrist and get a current diagnosis and a GAF score. Submit these report to reopen the claim. Personality inventories such as the MMPI etc. could diagnose a personality disorder. However, it does not indicate when the disorder onset. As I said before the idea that the C&P examiner could have used your subjective recollection of events in the military for the basis of his personality disorder diagnosis is totally bogus and also prohibited by current M21 adjudication procedures. It is not a question of whether or not they used the same reports to come up with two different diagnoses. It is a question of what justification the C&P examiner used for his diagnosis. It sounds like he pulled it from a place where the sun does not shine.

In any event it does not appear that you appealed the original denial and you have to get the claim re-opened. The VA might be prohibited from re-adjudicating a claim that was closed on the same evidence that was used for the original denial. This is why they are asking you for new and material evidence. What I am saying is battle the CUE and submit the new medical evidence FROM A DOCTOR at the same time, if possible.

[Hoppy]

Dear Happy

That was the best writting on personality disorder and its consequenses on VA benifits I have read.

I would like to add on thing from my personal experence.

I was listed as a personality disorder when the MMPE reports showed schizoid. after 22 years I decided to fight the VA on the basis they never performed a C&P. In my case the request for a C&P was in and of it self treated as a new re open of an old claim. So the VA would not give me a C&P unless I submitted new and material evidence. I argued the C&P never having been performed was in and of itself new and material. I went up to the BVA and BVA found denial of C&P violated my due process. Even when the BVA ordered the C&P VA refused to comply. Eventully I got the C&P and my 100%.

This vet to get around all the red tape the VA has instore for him. May be best to get an IMO on his issues. If the C&P is what he needs to prove SC. He will be fight years and years just for the VA to give him one.

Terry Higgins

Terry

That is very interesting. What year did the BVA consider the denial of a C&P as violation of due process?

When I filed my claim for angioedma, I had tons of medical journal info, I found favorable BVA decisions, I found lots of failures in the duty to assist and I wanted to fight my claim on this level. Both Clark Evans and Alex told me to get current medical reports and to rely on medical principal rather than rely on citing the VA's failures. That is what I did. That is what re-opened my claim and the new report is what the adjudicator citied when awarding SC.

[Wings]

Wanted to add this reg. to the mix ... ~Wings

§4.127 Mental retardation and personality disorders. Mental retardation and personality disorders are not diseases or injuries for compensation purposes, and, except as provided in §3.310(a) of this chapter, disability resulting from them may not be service-connected. However, disability resulting from a mental disorder that is superimposed upon mental retardation or a personality disorder may be service-connected. (Authority: 38 U.S.C. 1155)

P.S. I do agree with Hoppy, the best way to fight a diagnosis of P/DO is with current medical evidence.

See also

§4.125 Diagnosis of mental disorders. (a) If the diagnosis of a mental disorder does not conform to DSM-IV or is not supported by the findings on the examination report, the rating agency shall return the report to the examiner to substantiate the diagnosis. (b) If the diagnosis of a mental disorder is changed, the rating agency shall determine whether the new diagnosis represents progression of the prior diagnosis, correction of an error in the prior diagnosis, or development of a new and separate condition. If it is not clear from the available records what the change of diagnosis represents, the rating agency shall return the report to the examiner for a determination. (Authority: 38 U.S.C. 1155)