Seeing Is Believing!

[Bigred122]

Why does the VA even have a disability program if they aren't going to play fair? I learned early that the VA played the game of LIFE by their own rules.And if they didn't have a rule for it, they made one up just for us and it would only be used once so that it wouldn't be considered the rule of Law.Last weekend, I received my medical records for my first 2 years in the sevice from the NPRC. Being in sports all my life, I was a suck up the pain kinda guy, so I didn't go a medical facility unless it was emergency in nature. So my records were a whole 12 pages long.(I create more nowadays in just one day) And to make me feel like one of the gang, two pages were missing.Would you believe those two pages just happen to be very important to my claim?(Silly me, you all have been at this for years and have heard this story a thousand times.) I know we have people from the VA who come here. Can someone explain to me why these records disappear. Are they paid to process claims or are they paid to sabotage claims. It happens so regularly, it just can't be fate.It has to be on purpose.The odds at them losing 2 pages out of 14 and those 2 pages being key to me getting disability must be HUGE. They did screwup and leave 1 page that may help me on my AO claim from FT Gordon .I don't remember my visit to the hospital there, but it occurred after 2 weekends of guard duty at one of the AO dump sites.It showed a strange rash, dizzyness, diarreaha, and a strange weakness. It was on a important medical document from Basic trainning.One of the page/pages missing was a 4 day stay at the base clinic/make do hospital for unknown reasons. This was key evidence again to my exposure to AO. The other document was a visit to mental health DR. In the letter they sent with my records, they said to call and give them special permission to send other misc records. Of course when I called them today, they had no clue to what the record clerk was talking about. So I told them what was missing and they said they would check again. (Some things have to be authorized twice by me makes no sense)I told them I was up against a 4/29 deadline, so hopefully they will be found.lol I can't believe that there isn't some hidden rule that says to deny deny deny! Lets keep the playing field fair and just decide things on the evidence. It's too late for me now, but I suggest if your thinking about filing a claim, get ALL your records first. Then file your your claim. By filing first they know what records to make disappear. They are the dealer in this card game and they decide what cards we get or don't get.Thanks for giving me a place to vent.Deadline date is approaching in 2 weeks so the end might be near for dealing with this silly game. Get my approval/denial and then to decide what to do. A hundred trees gave their life, just to save a few more government jobs.Was it worth it? We will see!! Mike

[Bigred122]

Bigred

The last two paragraphs in this response are the best I can come up with at this time. It is based on the tactics the VA has used to deny claims Filed by Fort Gordon veterans. I am not sufficiently updated to base any opinion on what you have recently posted on hadit .

"I thought Hadit was here to support the troops,not judge us and shoot down our claims"

The last thing I won't to do is give a veteran a false sense of security that results in a lack of preparation that results in delays or denial. Or worse yet the false belief that they are going to get a wind fall. We have had veterans show up here with claims originally file in 2005 who think they are getting 40 years worth of retro at 100% for a back condition. They send me emails telling me how they told their wives and friends their troubles are over and they are going to be rich. I have had to tell them to slow down and get all the facts. I have never advised a veteran to give up. I tell them to get other opinions and service officers. I am not the final opinion on anything.

"When I started I contacted about 30 so called Vet advocate lawyers before ione finally answered me. And he was honest enough to tell me what I just said to you on how they chose their cases."

These attorneys only get paid when they win. They will prescreen claims or they will go out of business. They can be the best attorney in the world. However, if they are a bad business man they will not be able to practice law.

"Sure glad your not processing my claim for AO.lol I would have to have a picture of me bathing in a 50 gal barrel of AO, With signed avidavits from two Federal Judges that they personally opened the prevuious un openned container of AO."

You know that I really would not require such a picture and affidavit that's why you are laughing. In any case check out my drawing. I had a little extra time and I enjoy drawing. See the attached drawing.

"Lol" I am glad you can still laugh. Many of the veterans I have helped here on hadit have been ready to jump of a bridge or go to the RO and start shooting people. You would not believe how many phone calls I have gotten at 2:00 AM from veterans who are ready to go off the deep end. Sometimes I feel like the cop who's job it is to talk to the jumpers. I am not complaining. It comes with the territory.

In any event all I want to do is put you at a place where there was agent orange and the VA considers the chemical "active".

"Hoppy, wanted me to persue some skin problem and that is not my evidence. I am a redhead so I'm sensitive to many chemicals. My evidence is having health problem that are proven to NOT be herediatary(sp). How about explaining to me how the Blue Water Navy qualifies. They can't prove exposure, they were 30+ miles from land."

I am a big blond. For the last twenty years the angioedma got so severe I am now a "bubble boy". The doctors do not want me going anywhere there is a possibility i will run into lite hydrocarbons.

I told you to strengthen the proof of exposure to AO. I asked you to consider looking for diagnoses you may have forgotten about in association with the skin condition. The VA is diagnosis driven. If they gave you a diagnosis it is very hard for the VA to rebut it many years after discharge.

In my explanation of my claim I went pretty fast on some of the criteria I dealt with. The VA actually tried to derail my claim by scheduling tests that would determine it was hereditary or caused by foods or pollens. Even though the tests the VA scheduled proved that my condition was not hereditary or caused by foods or pollens, I had to prove exposure to the same chemicals in the military as the chemicals that were responsible for the post service angioedema.

We once had a senior service officer who posted on hadit who called us names. I can't remember what they where. However, he thought we were a bunch of babies trying to get money we did not deserve. One day he posted a curriculum vitae with all the training he had been given by his service organization. I had to take a shot at him by posting my curriculum vitae. One thing I did not put on mine at that time is that in addition to the decade I spent in various schools for the purpose of learning how to develop medical / legal evidence was that I worked as a turf and irrigation specialist for city government. 1000 people applied for my job. They gave a civil service exam that was written by people who had four year degrees in park management. Only five people passed the exam; three guys with BS degrees in park management, one guy with ten years experience and me. I had the highest score on the exam and was hired.

With the above training and work experience which required understanding and preventing the contamination of the environment by chemicals used in parks owned by city government, this is what I have to say about your Blue Water Navy question.

The VA is not service connecting people thirty miles off shore as far as I know. There had to be the confirmable presence aboard ships with "brown water" exposure.

http://miapblog.us/?p=828

From VA's Jan 2010 Comp and Pension bulletin

Policy (211)

To date, we have received verification from various sources showing that a number of offshore "blue water" naval vessels conducted operations on the inland "brown water" rivers and delta areas of Vietnam. We have also identified certain vessel types that operated primarily or exclusively on the inland waterways. The ships and dates of inland waterway service are listed below. If a Veteran's service aboard one of these ships can be confirmed through military records during the time frames specified, then exposure to herbicide agents can be presumed without further development.

My experience shows that chemicals that are used by city governments 50 miles inland are found in all the bays and shorelines. Exposure to the water is the key. The chemicals are transported by the water. The chemicals have "active" life spans. All defoliant chemicals will biodegrade. We are not talking about plutonium. The chemicals used by city governments degrade in six months. I am not an expert on agent orange. However, I did find some cases which show how the VA is interpreting the "active" life of agent orange.

The only case I found from Fort Gordon that was awarded is probably the same one you were talking about. This case involves a veteran who claimed to be game warden. He claimed his duties actually involved working with the barrels of agent orange. As far as I can tell from the decision is that the VA was not able to confirm that he actually worked with agent orange. However, they confirmed both with his testimony and the opinion from an expert on the assignment of MOS's that his work could have put him in the area where the chemicals were sprayed three months after they stopped spraying. There was no evidence that the chemical was not active at that time. The claim was awarded on equipoise of the evidence. There was no evidence against the claim and the evidence in favor of the claim was sufficient to be as likely as not that he was exposed to agent orange. The association with diabetes was presumptive based on exposure to agent orange.

This next case also shows how the VA has interpreted evidence regarding the active life of agent orange. The claim was denied because the VA did not have evidence that agent orange was "active" when the veteran was stationed at Fort Gordon. It has occurred to me that this could be your case and I am just regurgitating what you already know.

Excerpts from the case.

According to the Department of Defense information herbicides were tested in Fort Gordon from December 1966 to October 1967. There is no indication that herbicides were transported or stored in Fort Gordon in 1972.

Technical Report 114 reported that exposure to an herbicide agent (Agent Orange) at Fort Gordon, Georgia was likely on July 15, 1967 to July 17, 1967. The record reveals that the veteran served at Fort Gordon, Georgia in 1971; therefore as far as the evidence reveals, the veteran has not been exposed to an herbicide agent. The Board recognizes the veteran's contention that he was exposed to Agent Orange and his belief that the chemical dioxin stayed in the soil and surrounding areas for 10-20 years; however, the veteran's belief has not been officially proven or recognized by the United States Department of Defense, and Report Number 315 indicates that testing performed in 1970 at Fort Gordon revealed no herbicides or dioxins above the normal level.

"By the time I got there 5/71 there was nothing growing there. It was right on the edge where the spraying was done."

Your statement has merit. They need to develop evidence against the claim. I am presuming they either used or will try to use DOD report 315 as evidence against the claim.

If it were my claim I would be attacking the evidence against the claim. The evidence against the claim could be the DOD report 315. I would get that report and read it. I spent an hour looking for this report on line and could not find it or any other reference to it. I could only confirm that the VA has used this report to deny one claim. If the report does not specifically say they tested the area you are talking about then I would claim the report is too vague to use as evidence.

If I know the way the VA works the following argument might also be applicable on appeal. I would also claim that the report was not provided to you and you were not given the opportunity to have it evaluated by your own experts. I would claim that the discussion of the evidence against the claim only deals with one test results and did not investigate the accuracy of the procedures used to make the conclusions that there were no dioxins above normal levels. I would try to show that the procedures did not comply with accepted scientific test procedures. It would require an opinion from an expert on the test procedure. You could also appeal saying that the presumption that one test result contained in a DOD report is not sufficiently developed or accurate to base a denial. This would throw the ball back into their court.

Thank you for responding this morning, I appreciate the humor as well as the very informative information and perspectives you have given me.I do have those bungee moments and Post Office moments, but I'm not the kind of person that shares those with anyone. I'm one of those if you see me on the street and ask "Hows it going?" I am going to tell you "Things are Great"!! When my truck just got repoed,Wife ran off with my business partner, my dog just bit me and The VA just sent me a letter stating they were starting back up the Draft and my number is #1.

This whole Agent Orange process is one of those Cluster* moments the military has. It was years after Veit Nam that they even realize they had a problem. For 20 years they just blantantly denied everything until veterans provided them so much of the same evidence they could deny it anymore. They used our evidence to fight every claim that had the Name Agent Orange attached to it. I'm guessing but I think they are only about half way to knowing what they need to know about it. Even the producers of the chemicals can't agree on the life of the chemicals.To many variables from type of soil,humidity,water saturation, temperatures and many other things that effect whether it breaks down or is intensified by other chemicals or conditions. The Army wasn't known for putting up signs like farmers are that chemicals are being sprayed in that area. The area in Fort Gordon that the Game Warden sprayed was kind of like what one would find at a state park.They had bunk houses and a main lodge and other out buildings.They never said why the area was closed down to the public, they just had 3 of us guarding it from Friday night thru Monday morning.Until I started researching areas where Agent Orange was used, I would have never known that I had been in 3 of those areas.One was pre military up at Ft Greely AK where a buddy and me would go fishing,No signs anywhere around there. I was shocked when I saw the maps at Ft Gordon Ga. And Korea was a surprised when I seen that the units they approved were the same units we provided communications for and we were everywhere they were. When we had a Change of Command for the 2nd Division, they had what they called an area beautifulication that consisted of spraying weeds planting trees and making gardens. The Government had given about 5 million to do this project and Koreans were suppose to be paid to do this.But just us GI's were doing it all, so who knows were the money went.lol There was also this one time when we were out in the field and was told to put on our gas masks.When we asked why, we got the usual reply, because you were ordered to. We had them on for about 2 hours. So the military never has been known for passing out information, it was on a need to know basis.Just like we knew we had nuclear missles all around us, we were never told exactly where. My claims haven't gone far enough to make it to any record depts yet.Their S-date of 4/29 is coming quick, so I will be surprised to see how they approach what I have given them.I thought about getting an IMO but when I seen that they were about $4000 and I couldn't afford 10% of that, I thought extra hard about them and figured it would work against me. I could see how the VA could perseive that evidence as being a little shady unless the Dr has treated you for a long time. I live in Oregon and alot of people use those DR for hire to write them up prescriptions to get Medical MJ. So I figure I will be on my own till I get my first denial or approved low ball claim. I spent all weekend reorganizing my claim on to CD discs. So I will be prepared for the next battle.I would rather be known as a Vet who doesn't know what I'm doing than a slick willy trying to scam the government.I don't want a penny more or less than what I am due. My main claim is the Hep C, the AO claim is just the gravy.

I had buddies that were in the Armys navy.They went to school in New Jersey. I'm guessing they patroled in boats like they had in the movie Apocalpse Now.Now those boats I can see how they would qualify.I saw a few cases that were granted at CAVC concerning Blue Water Navy claims.Those always confused me on the connection.Freighters I can see, not many weeds on destroyers or aircraft carriers.lol

Now that we have had some quality time together, I can see how you can be a valuable asset to this or any site that deals with related material. I'm glad you didn't take any offense, because I meant none.Unfortunately flat screenitis often is misunderstood. Thank you again for your advice and it is very much appreciated.Hopefully my claims will come back with outcomes that I approve of and I won't need your advice for next time.But we both know the answer to that. If not maybe we can co author the Book "How to win VA Claims.. The Book for Dummies!" lol Thanks Again!! Mike

[Bigred122]

Today I did a follow up on some records from NPRC.When I called them last week they said they would send them. Today they say that I must have them sent to a Dr so that they can be explained to me properly. How do they know or don't know what I can understand or not. I know the records are mental records that show that the Dr recommended me for early discharge out of the service. It did piss me off 40 years ago when I found out but I have gotten over it by now.lolWhen I asked my CO why he didn't release me he said I wasn't bad enough to let go. Well 6 months later I had reached that level.lol Can they legally hold back my records? They didn't specify what kind of Dr I had to have them sent to. Anyone ever had this happen before? Maybe one of the VA people can chime in here and unconfuse me. Thanxs, Mike

[Chuck75]

In short, yes they can refuse to give you the records. The simplest thing to do is to have them sent to a private doctor of your choice. You also might want to get the doctor to write a short letter citing "medical necessity".

A lawyer representing you should also be able to obtain a copy.

Today I did a follow up on some records from NPRC.When I called them last week they said they would send them. Today they say that I must have them sent to a Dr so that they can be explained to me properly. How do they know or don't know what I can understand or not. I know the records are mental records that show that the Dr recommended me for early discharge out of the service. It did piss me off 40 years ago when I found out but I have gotten over it by now.lolWhen I asked my CO why he didn't release me he said I wasn't bad enough to let go. Well 6 months later I had reached that level.lol Can they legally hold back my records? They didn't specify what kind of Dr I had to have them sent to. Anyone ever had this happen before? Maybe one of the VA people can chime in here and unconfuse me. Thanxs, Mike

[Bigred122]

Hoppy, I hope you don't mind that I'm using your artwork as my avatar.If it had a beard and a moustache it would look just like me with short hair!! I will wear it as a Badge of Courage at all of the Veteran sites I visit. Who knows maybe it will turn out to be my Lucky Charm on my claims!! Thanks again!! I am honored to Have A HOPPY!! Mike

Edited April 27, 2011 by Bigred122

[Hoppy]

Glad you liked the picture. I got a bigger laugh seeing it as your avatar than when I drew it. It is obvious you have put a lot of effort into understanding the events in your life. You have a lot of perspective. People who have never been through these types of battles have no clue as to how complex they make your life. It would take me another hour to type up my experience with angioedema and the military and VA. To make a long story short. The condition was called angioneurotic edema and was considered a mental condition when I was in the military (1970). They tried to cure me by sending me to mess duty (KP). They kicked me out tof the service and told me it was not service connectable. Later the doctor changed there mind and decide it was a vascular disease and they dropped it from the psych manuals. They changed the name to angioedema. Nobody told me this. The attorney who got me into PI school and was going to employ me found out the angioedema was stage five and would not hire me. He got me a social security lawyer. I was awarded SSI. The SSI was lost we I got a non service connected pension. About this time which was 26 years after my discharge I got a computer and went on line. I found hadit in 1996. I learned about my disease and found out doctors who were in the militray were being service connected. After an eight year battle and two denials for a slam dunk claim I got lots of good advice I got from the late Alex Humphries and other hadit members and I was service connected. During the 8 year period I was living on $700.00 a month from a non service connected pension.

“Today I did a follow up on some records from NPRC.When I called them last week they said they would send them. Today they say that I must have them sent to a Dr so that they can be explained to me properly. How do they know or don't know what I can understand or not. I know the records are mental records that show that the Dr recommended me for early discharge out of the service. It did piss me off 40 years ago when I found out but I have gotten over it by now.lol When I asked my CO why he didn't release me he said I wasn't bad enough to let go. Well 6 months later I had reached that level”

I would find out if you only have one shot at them sending the reports. If they will only send them to one doctor then it would be best to prescreen the doctor and be confident that this is a doctor who will be on your side and willing to hear arguments related to any potential dispute that may arise from these reports. As you will learn later in this post a doctor who has the time and desire to get involved could be a necessity in reports that are being used for a VA claim. If you do not have the money, have them sent to your primary doctor. I have succeeded in battling the VA doctors for the purpose of getting an adequate review of old records. It is not always easy.

I have worked with veterans who were refused access to the record by VA shrinks. The veterans submitted a request for a review by another doctor and the reports were released. We filed the request with the patient advocate office with a letter explaining that the reports are being used by the VA for rating purposes and we need to access them to check them for accuracy.

It sounds to me like we could just be getting started if they deny the PTSD claim. I will try and make this part short until you get more feedback on what the reports say. It is entirely possible that your diagnosis which the doctor used to recommend your discharge was for a personality disorder. If they deny the PTSD you might be able to advance an anxiety disorder or mood disorder claim based on the in service diagnosis of a personality disorder. It depends on the amount of evidence in the military records, your post service history and your current diagnosis.

Not only do the raters not know anything about the old diagnoses used the new doctor you get could also be lost. I actually have specialized in researching and obtaining reports re-diagnosing old DSM I and II diagnoses. I have a complete paper trail from prior veterans I have helped showing that the RO raters take old obsolete DSM diagnoses at face value.

I have been trying to pressure the VA into establishing policy that they should be required to send all reports containing DSM I and II diagnoses to an examiner for the purpose of establishing a current DSM IV diagnosis. The VA has refused to listen to me. This caused me to find psychologists who were willing to make a re-diagnosis based on the old reports of symptoms. Personality disorder diagnoses need to be re-diagnosed due to the fact that the VA will not service connect most personality disorders. Some VA doctors told veterans I was helping this cannot be done.

I had to get really involved in these cases. I found other VA doctors or private doctors who disagreed and said that a re-diagnosis was possible. It depends on how detailed the in service reports and post service reports are. In one case that was denied four times based on three medical reports the VA got, I found a VA psychologist who wrote a report that totally established the re-diagnosis and was awarded by a DRO as having “full supporting logic”.

It will be very nice if the VA awards your PTSD claim. If not and you enter into this type of dispute to get a re-diagnosis it could easily prolong the battle, frustration etc. There are many veterans here on hadit who have been through this. John made a comment that he thought about half the hadit elders have been through this dispute.

[jbasser]

""Also, at one time they were researching the possibility that HEP “C” was being spread by the guns they were using for immunizations given to the troops. What is the latest on this avenue?""

For what its worth, my neighbor is a Nam vet that is currently compensated for HEP C from his immunizations. From a gun..

Hamslice

Maybe Alan will chime in here. I believe he has researched the injection method for the guns.

J